Attending a Wedding!!!

[*saRah*]

As sallamu 3allaykum,

My fisrt cousin, is having a wedding this Tuesday insha'allah, and i HAVE to go for a specific reason, it is mixed and music will be playing, how can i dodge this fitnah, its gonna drive me crazy, cos i havnt been to a mixed wedding in yonks. Please some help? what can i do? i wasn't going to go cos i told my mum like 2 weeks bf im not going and nothing can make me go, but subhanallah im gonna end up going cos something happened (i'm too embaressed to say why, so pls dont ask insha'allah) Some help please as to what i can do while im there? to ignore this stuff.. Jazakuallahu khair

[Amin]

Is it obligatory according to Islam for you to go?

[aussiemu]

assalamu alaikum,

I don't think she is trying to say that she has to go because of a reason that will be Islamically acceptable. I know girls have a harder time getting out of these family things than guys.

I'd advise you try your best not to go and if you are going to have to go in the end - then try to stay as little as possible and maybe spend most of your time away from the fitnah as much as possible (if there is a safe place outside you could spend more time etc). So just spend as little time as possible around it all. Are you able to leave earlier? Arrive late and leave early. Stuff like that.

But really do everything you can to not go (suddenly catch a cold on the day?)

wassalamu alaikum

[Tay_]

My fisrt cousin, is having a wedding this Tuesday insha'allah, and i HAVE to go for a specific reason, it is mixed and music will be playing, how can i dodge this fitnah, its gonna drive me crazy, cos i havnt been to a mixed wedding in yonks. Please some help? what can i do?

Get married yourself on the same day :D

[Abu Layla]

Sometimes that isn't an option. Try telling them about how you will be raised according to how you died, and you don't want to die doing something that is displeasing to Allaah. Tell them that you love them a lot but you love Allaah and His Messenger :saw: more.
And remember that if you're forced into sinning then you won't be held accountable bi ithnillah. But at the same time, try and avoid it as much as you can inshaa'Allaah.

[domaap]

A teacher of ours didnt go to her own brothers wedding for reasons like that. She did explain to them why. At the end of the day you not missing much. JUst one party filled with stuff you shouldnt be doing.

[forbidden_fruit]

If you HAVE to go Sarah, just try to avoid all that Fitnah around you.. Distract yourself with other things. If I have to attend a mixed wedding/engagement, I just go around taking photos or something, and steer clear of the dance floor at all times!

My brothers wedding is in 2 months, and yes, it's mixed unfortunately. It's not up to me whether I want to go or not.

[Lena]

I like Heba's idea of taking photos.. lol

Unfourtnetly sometimes it's hard to avoid mixed weddings/engagement, especially if there close family ones. Blah I have a family wedding tomorrow, which I'll keep trying to dodge until the last minute. But like Heba, It's not up to me whether I want to go or not.

[Islam=My_Light]

The best advice is don't go, but since you can't do anything about that...Here's a few tips on avoiding as much fitnah as you can:

*Take your mp3 and crank up your Qur'an audio when ever they crank up the music. Nobody will be able to tell you have it on, since your skarf will be hiding it ;)

*And if that doesn't work, bribe a little kid with some lollies, to turn off the music player :p

*Takes pics like heba said. It'll help you avoid the dance floor if you busy yourself with something else, ppl won't be able to drag you onto there.

*Always be with someone...best to go with the mother(s)/aunts. Then nobody can come up to you and try to chat you up.

I hope that helps :)

[Houda*]

I won't ask why you have to go :p If you want, when you get there, you can go for a bathroom break then call me and I'll pick you up :D

Nah but seriously, what I used to do when I used to go weddings is sit outside with some girls because the hall would be stuffy and the pumped up music used to give me headaches and we used to sit outside in the fresh air.

[SuBMiSSioN]

lol the story of my life :p

Go hide away in the bathroom, and if anyone sees you, and asks what you're doing, tell them you can't be bothered for anyone :D

Or..

Get someone to call you, and you can spend hours on the phone away from all the ta2 hanak lol us girls can tend to talk a lot when we want :D

[forbidden_fruit]

Get someone to call you, and you can spend hours on the phone away from all the ta2 hanak lol us girls can tend to talk a lot when we want :D

Now we're talkin.. :p

All this, and then we have to put up with ppl complaining how boring our segregated weddings are gonna be as well. I've gotten comments like just don't do any wedding at all.. What's the point?? :rolleyes: Oh well, as long as we're happy! :D

[jah]

I'm surprised to read how many of you say its not up to you whether you go or not....come on sisters, are you like 12 or something so people treat you that way? I dont mean to be rude or anythnig and pls dont get me wrong but I really do have problem understanding your situations....
Just say you're not going! Make yourself clear. Parents may get upset, but they'll get over it. Afterall, who who can force you attend some function againts your will???

[SuBMiSSioN]

jah: Being in the situation that Sarah's currently in, believe me it's not an easy thing to get out of. I don't know if you've been in this kind of situation before, but I've been there, done that plenty of times.. and I'm still going through it. It's impossible for me to get out of any family wedding. I won't get into details about the whole situation, but there a lot of things that you can not control, and yes.. some of our parents can and will force you to go to a function you don't want to go to.

[Umm Jannah]

Just don't go, and be firm about your opinion that's not right in Islam, there shouldn't be Music, free-mixing and so on.

And also, when you go they'd push you to dress up...you know what I mean :/

Just don't go and stick to your opinion and Allaah Won't let you down!

[(¯`•._.•[OmAyA]•._.•´¯)]

habibty don't go. fear Allah. Think how far you have come islamically and strive to come further. Is this reason that's making you go really worth it. What if the angel of death decided to pay you a visit (may Allah not allow it) at that exact moment.

[MrWarraEnib]

i didnt even go to my own sisters wedding reception... as you know in most typical muslim weddings , with loud music, mixed environment, just told my dad and mum this and that and even my brother in law and sister that, islamically this whole wedding shouldnt even take place..and inshallah i wont be attending...

went and played indoor cricket !!!! shame we lost that nite :(

[fatima_43]

MrWarraEnib - how did your parents take it?

Sarah wot i would do is stay in the ladies room most of the time and avoid being near the dance floor. Or you can go and buy lollies if there is a 7/11 near by and avoid being inside the reception as much as u can.

also , i suggest wearing a blindfold and ear plugs and sitting in the corner to avoid the fitnah.

[MrWarraEnib]

i told my parents beforehand...and i was even stressing about it from when my sister got engaged loool...

but they took it... i think they knew my reasons and it was my final answer... like i get asked question from some non muslims that attendend...OMG bro you didnt even attend your own sisters wedding...!!!! i just laugh lol

[fatima_43]

u were probably the talk of the town after that mrwarraEnib lol
i think it is easier for a guy to say they don't wanna attend a wedding than it is for a girl.

[Umm Jannah]

My brother was playing XBox the other night alone and didn't let me join him... :(

[aussiemu]

Guys have it alot easier than girls when it comes to this issue. I don't know many guys that were pressured to do things but with girls it is a pretty common problem. I guess parents tend to feel they can not 'force' it as much as they do with girls.

Anyways, I think catching a cold the day before should work well :)

[Sammi]

Sarah coz ur NEVER on msn :smack: I'll ask u here, is this Tue at Taylors Lakes by any chance?

[Najah]

I've been in the situation that Lena, Submission have been in and Sarah is in now, and for those muslims who haven't been in that situation then its easy for you to say 'just dont go' Sarah if you can develop some kind of 24 bug lol that doesn't allow you go then try, but I think the next best thing is to quickly show your face and then go sit outside somewher ewith some friends. Usually receptions have like a sitting room outside the hall that you can sit in or even outside and try to spend as much time away from the main hall as possible and if you can get away early do so, If you are doing everything in your power to avoid going or being in the situation directly then this is the next best thing I guess, of course it would be best not to go. When I was single and still living at home, my parents would get heaps of invites to weddings and I would refuse to go, even the segregated ones with music I didnt go, I got told off but my parents got over it, as each time I stood my ground and really being an adult they couldn't 'make' me go in the end, some of the weddings they never went to themselves.

And Heba - when i was planning my walima, I got the same thing from some relatives - why bother having a wedding at all if its going to be segregated, and they are boring, no music people won't enjoy themslves etc. Well with my dua, patience and perserverance I had none of that - we just had a bbq in my parents backyard lol, and everyone really enjoyed themselves Alhumdulilah, was just my family and my husband's family.

[Sammer]

If you feel comfortable then go.

If not, don't.

Hope it goes well.

[*saRah*]

Jazakuallahu khair, everyone wallah i appreciate that! SubhanAllah yes sammi the wedding is tommorow, sorry i don't go on msn much :o SubhanAllah, something so mad happened! the laliya was like on saturday, and my family was planning to go. mind u even the Layliya is mixed????:eek: subhnallah! anyways, we come home from work and my family forgot about it!! LOLL subhanallah no one understands how happy i was :D my mum, dad were upset cos they r our fist cousins, and if u saw me my smile was massive loll subhanallah my parents never forget like that :D all grace is from Allah subhanahu wa ta3alah! anyways, i don't care, im still gonna try my hardest not to go insha'allah ill c how things go.

by the way warra enib boy, RESPECT man :) legend, not going to ur sisters wedding is so good, wallah my parents would never allow this! and yeah even if it was my bro that said that, they wouldnt allow it! but with this wedding, my parents don't care if my bro dosnt go, cos hes like a caveman, he's always in his room, and they don't even bother! i don't think he even knows the weddings tommorow, man this is were i wish i was like him just for this day. insha'Allah khair!

[Sammer]

Sorry, maybe I missed something here.

And the problem with attending "mixed" weddings where people are not dancing and acting inappropriately is....???

[*F@ttY*]

Sarah, our teacher (wed night classes) also didnt go to her bros wedding coz it was mixed. Trust me they'd get over it. When my aunty (dad's sis) got married in 1999, my mum and dad didn't go. They were there at the house (obviously) and went to the gardens with the bride and groom but there was no big deal about them not attending the wedding as everyone was aware they didn't attend mixed functions. Alhamdulillah. Things may be hard at the beginning ya sarah but hang in there. Slowly it gets easier and people get over it. Even in the community now, the invitations for mixed weddings come but we dont attend and noone holds a grudge against us etc (or any other families that dont attend mixed weddings). Even when mum and dad got married, there was a big deal abt my dad wanting the wedding separate and his parents wanting it mixed... and back in those days, having separate weddings was a huge thing! but dad kept insisting and as you can see, alhamdulilah things are great (without any haram and any mixed wedding ;) ) and it's no biggie. Walhamdulillahi rabbal 3alameen.

[aussiemu]

Sammer: The wedding is mixed, male and females are dancing together and music is being played like a nightclub. That's the problem there.

[aussiemu]

Sarah: That's great alhamdulillah. may Allah make it easier for you to avoid the haram.

[Sammer]

Sammer: The wedding is mixed, male and females are dancing together and music is being played like a nightclub. That's the problem there.

Oh ok, so the issue is the dancing together, not the fact the wedding is "mixed". I see what youre saying now.

[cheesegirl]

:salam:

Why don't you just spend the whole night in the reception bathroom? There wont be any men in there!:D

[chickenrice]

I agree that it's harder for girls to get out of such situations than guys. But for once, I agree with jah. You have to be firm in your convictions. I don't see any benefit in lying to your folks about why you don't want to go.

As an aside - what on earth is wrong with some parents? My siblings and I, if we didn't want to go to a wedding, we just said so and our parents let us off the hook.


I'm surprised to read how many of you say its not up to you whether you go or not....come on sisters, are you like 12 or something so people treat you that way? I dont mean to be rude or anythnig and pls dont get me wrong but I really do have problem understanding your situations....
Just say you're not going! Make yourself clear. Parents may get upset, but they'll get over it. Afterall, who who can force you attend some function againts your will???

[aussiemu]

chickenrice: I think the parents know the kids don't want to go and why but they still force it. I know in those families it isn't as simple as saying I don't want to go and that's it.

My parents never forced us into doing anything either so alhamdulillah for that but there are a lot of parents where it simply doesn't matter what you want. Plus they can make your life a living hell in other areas.

[Sammer]

It's hard these days to find anything in between - either it is really bad with dancing between men and women that makes Patrick Swayze look like an amateur, or it's as upbeat as a graveyard.

But I did attend one wedding that had both males and females in the same reception but there was no dancing, people were grouped into families and they had a very unique way to entertain the guests.

Islamic doesn't mean any of the extremes - dancing with one another or total and complete separation.

[aussiemu]

Actually I find most women who cover prefer separate weddings because you can have lot more fun without men around.

[*F@ttY*]

You can have a separate wedding and still have dancing...

Mixed weddings are so ugly and so uncomfortable. It's either you dance and ppl watch u dance! :|
or you sit and watch girls and guys dance together :|

Separate weddings are much better and much more fun.

[SuBMiSSioN]

Just because there may not be any dancing, or any music, doesn't make it ok to have a mixed wedding. You're going to have females coming all dressed up, wearing make-up etc and this alone would cause a lot of fitnah.

[Sammer]

Just because there may not be any dancing, or any music, doesn't make it ok to have a mixed wedding. You're going to have females coming all dressed up, wearing make-up etc and this alone would cause a lot of fitnah.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The general fiqh rule is everything is halal except what is specifically mentioned to be haram, not the other way around.

If Muslimahs are dressed nicely and modestly, and are in the presence of males, there is nothing wrong with this.

In fact, the word "mixing" is a made up term not found neither in the Quran or ahadeeth!

Segregated weddings are purely cultural, Islam has never requested men and women to be segregated in any fucntion be it a wedding, aqeeqah or lecture.

So if you feel more comfortable in a segregated wedding, then may Allah reward you for your intentions.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with Muslim men and women being in a large group event like a wedding or public forum.

[SuBMiSSioN]

lol @ mixing not being found in the Qur'aan or ahadeeth.

On that point, neither is the word gelatine. But surprise surprise, there's a ruling out there somewhere which says that one should avoid it.

Oh, and as for Muslimahs dressing nicely and modestly, I find that a bit contradictory. Muslimahs are ordred to wear the hijjab, some scholars even say the niqab is compulsory to wear, in order to cover their beauty. The hijjab isn't merely just covering one's hair.

[sUbMiTa]

Assallam Allaykum.

Sarah i know what ur going through subhanAllah may Allah make it easy on you whatever the choice u make.

When my brother had his wedding I made the choice not to attend because it was mixed and with music and even though my parents said there will be no alcohol the guests did a BYO.

I promised my parents that i will come in when they were pinning money on the bride and groom however when i called my sis to find out how it was she told me and i decided not to go and asked my sis to pin money on them on behalf of me and my husband.

My parent's were very upset especially my mum who gave me a ear bashing for a few months than she was over it.

AlhamdulillAh my brother and his wife were ok with us not attending as I explained to them that we don't go to mixed weddings.

So sis try your best not to go if u do end up going than may Allah reward you for ur intention.

[Sammer]

lol @ mixing not being found in the Qur'aan or ahadeeth.

On that point, neither is the word gelatine. But surprise surprise, there's a ruling out there somewhere which says that one should avoid it.

Oh, and as for Muslimahs dressing nicely and modestly, I find that a bit contradictory. Muslimahs are ordred to wear the hijjab, some scholars even say the niqab is compulsory to wear, in order to cover their beauty. The hijjab isn't merely just covering one's hair.

Ok let me put it to you this way.

Study from the time of Neanderthal men, to the Ancient Greeks, Romans, Jews, Persians all the way to the prophets times right up to Muhammad (pbuh) all the way to the last Ottoman Empire and show me a single example of "mixed" functions like a wedding being opposed.

Then try and find it in the Quran or hadeeth. When Allah makes something haraam, he is very explicit about it directly or through his prophet.

The word does not exist, we have made it up or inherited it culturally.

It is NOT contradictory for a Muslim woman to dress nicely and be modest. How do you propose they look? Smelly and unkept? :)

If a woman wants to wear hijab or niqab, thats her choice.

[SuBMiSSioN]

I'm not interested in the ancient greeks, romans jews or persians. I'm interested in what the Qur'aan and Sunnah say about such issues.

Let me put this scenario out to you.

Do you think that the men and women at the time of the prophet salallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam would have attended such a mixed wedding? Do you think the Prophet salallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam would have gone to a function with other women present who were dressed to impress, wearing make-up etc??

[*F@ttY*]

going to a lecture in a mixed environment isn't the same as going to a mixed wedding (Even if there is no dancing)

People are in 'lecture' moods etc and usually there is segregation whereby male and female do not sit all mixed together and during breaks etc the mixing is quite limited.

On the other hand, going to weddings, ppl go full on dressed up (the sisters) with make up etc and the mixing is not limited. Girls and guys start mixing unnecessarily and the seatings aren't separate anyway. The fitnah would arise out of nowhere! May Allah protect us from all fitnah.

[Abu Layla]

Not everything that is haram is to be found in the Quran or Hadeeth specifically or explicitly.

Some scholars may deem something to be haram by analogy for example, not because the word of the issue itself is in the Quran or a Hadeeth.

Of course you can't completely stop women and men from being around each other or seeing each other, that's not even something practical or reasonable. But you tell me how many families have their entire family and family friends etc. (i.e the people who would usually be attending the wedding), here in Australia, who are Islamically covered up... not even Islamically, just generally. This is what I believe sister Submission is referring to.

We're not in Saudi Arabia where the majority of women wear niqaab in front of other men. Not even the 'normal' hijab is worn in our community. Women appearing uncovered in front of non-mahram men is okay is it?
Some men don't want their women to be seen by other men as well. Some people are that jealous of their wives even being looked at so they don't want their women in a gathering where men can look at them.

[Sammer]

I'm not interested in the ancient greeks, romans jews or persians. I'm interested in what the Qur'aan and Sunnah say about such issues.

You should be because our scholars studied them. And I already stated and mentioned the prophet Muhammad up to the Ottoman Empire. So that should raise some interest surely.

Let me put this scenario out to you.

Do you think that the men and women at the time of the prophet salallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam would have attended such a mixed wedding? Do you think the Prophet salallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam would have gone to a function with other women present who were dressed to impress, wearing make-up etc??

Do I think? I KNOW.

They had ONE entrance (for men and women) in the prophets mosque. No screen, veil, tinted windows or brick walls. It was open.

The prophet gave public lectures to MIXED groups sister so yes, I do beleive this and I do beleive he would have permitted men and women to attend walimah - what makes you think he wouldn't have?

I never mentioned anything about make-up. I said the presence of men and women in the same room is NOT haraam.

[Sammer]

going to a lecture in a mixed environment isn't the same as going to a mixed wedding (Even if there is no dancing)

People are in 'lecture' moods etc and usually there is segregation whereby male and female do not sit all mixed together and during breaks etc the mixing is quite limited.

On the other hand, going to weddings, ppl go full on dressed up (the sisters) with make up etc and the mixing is not limited. Girls and guys start mixing unnecessarily and the seatings aren't separate anyway. The fitnah would arise out of nowhere! May Allah protect us from all fitnah.

There is no such thing as "mixing". This is a concocted term. We are making it up as we go along to justify our own desire to enforce our views on others. There's no evidence whatsoever "mixed" weddings are haraam providing the tenets of Islam are met.

Mixing happened at the time of the prophet Mohammad, it happened before his time and it happens after his time.

Many shun their own Muslim brothers and sisters because of "mixing" but you find the same people joking, laughing and even flirting with the opposite sex at the shopping centre, bank or post office.

Gimme a break.

[SuBMiSSioN]

As for the masjid..
================================================== =========
The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at Allaah’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the women’s rows from the men’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are:

Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik".

Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664.

This is the greatest evidence that the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) forbids meeting and mixing of men and women. The farther the men are from the women’s rows, the better, and vice versa.

If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places.

Abu Usayd al-Ansari narrated that he heard Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) say to the women on his way out of the mosque when he saw men and women mixing together on their way home:
‘Give way (i.e., walk to the sides) as it is not appropriate for you to walk in the middle the road.’ Thereafter, women would walk so close to the wall that their dresses would get caught on it. Narrated by Abu Dawood in "Kitab al-Adab min Sunanihi, Chapter: Mashyu an-Nisa Ma’ ar-Rijal fi at-Tariq.

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&QR=1200

[Sammer]

As for the masjid..
================================================== =========
The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at Allaah’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the women’s rows from the men’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are:

Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik".

Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664.

This is the greatest evidence that the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) forbids meeting and mixing of men and women. The farther the men are from the women’s rows, the better, and vice versa.

If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places.

Abu Usayd al-Ansari narrated that he heard Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) say to the women on his way out of the mosque when he saw men and women mixing together on their way home:
‘Give way (i.e., walk to the sides) as it is not appropriate for you to walk in the middle the road.’ Thereafter, women would walk so close to the wall that their dresses would get caught on it. Narrated by Abu Dawood in "Kitab al-Adab min Sunanihi, Chapter: Mashyu an-Nisa Ma’ ar-Rijal fi at-Tariq.

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&QR=1200

You are talking about a mosque? In Mecca men and women pray next to one another (?)

Ok, can you ask the website why one of Sh. Abdel-Aziz Bin Baaz's (may Allah have mercy on him) educators was a woman? And also ask them why Imam Al Nawawi, Al Baghdadi and Hassan Al Basri were ALL educated by women?

And also mention to them that Imam Al Baghdadi forbade his students (men and women) from learning Sahih Al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim from any other person except for a Muslim woman scholar he knew?

And sorry, also, the women teachers of those Imams held public lectures across Damascus, Cairo and the Arab world in a "mixed" environment where both men and women attended open and public lectures (and some got married through that by the way) and learnt while sitting at their feet.

These women titans did not get to where they were by locking thesmelves away and not interacting with their society.

Men and women see one another (thats why your supposed to lower your gaze, if you don;t see them, what are you going to lower your gaze from?) trade with one another, and work with one another.

This has happened throughout Islamic history and not the phenomenon of extreme segregation we see today.

[SuBMiSSioN]

There is a difference between attending an environment such as a masjid, a lecture or attending to your business in a "mixed" enviornment, and attending a mixed wedding. With masjids, lectures or what not, the enviornment is still segregated to an extent. Will you find men and women praying next to one another at the Prophet's masjid?? Will you find men and women sitting side-by-side when attending gatherings to increase their knowledge? Yes, there have been times in the past where men learnt off women, BUT there will still boundaries set in place. There were still laws that were followed. There is no way in the world that you can say that the men and women and the time of the prophet :saw: mixed in a way which you are explaining.

[Sammer]

Sister, my whole point is the issue of segregating the sexes during a wedding did not arise from Islam. It is pure culture. I am not saying it is haraam to have a separate wedding if one chooses to do so.

Allah (swt) did not order it, nor did Muhammad (saw) mention it ANYWHERE.

But they did order caution and lowering of the gaze and so forth. As I mentioned humanity has never existed segregated in any soceity, ever.
It is not natural. Look what happens when you segregate the sexes to the extreme (separate everything).

I mentioned Saudi Arabia and the disgusting sexual debauchery and perversion there as an example in the land of al haramain. And its because they are forcing people to extremes so the human being will seek recourse in different ways to counter it.

They do it via setting up mass sex parties via SMS, throwing their phone numbers to each other via car windows and so on. It happens.

So let's try and get out of this artificial world we create. We are oh so pious and humble and dare not look to a fellow Muslim because of "fitnah" and we turn around and smile in the face of a non Muslim.

[*F@ttY*]

There is no such thing as "mixing". This is a concocted term. We are making it up as we go along to justify our own desire to enforce our views on others. There's no evidence whatsoever "mixed" weddings are haraam providing the tenets of Islam are met.

Mixing happened at the time of the prophet Mohammad, it happened before his time and it happens after his time.

Gimme a break.

We aren't enforcing any view on anyone. I agree that 'segregation' or 'mixing' is not dealt with directly. But rather the Quran and the sunnah emphasise on minimizing factors that encourage any physical attractiveness or may lead to unlawful acts/ may cause fitnah. That is why mixed weddings are not allowed. Being in an environment where something like that is promoted is not such a good idea especially when you're supposed to prevent all munkar.

If the tenets of Islam are met (i.e: no dancing... and people are dressed modestly and islamically)... I don't see how that is a problem.

[SuBMiSSioN]

Doing one thing in the sight of one person, and another thing in the sight of another, does not mean we go and change the rulings to suit our needs.

If it was commanded to be segregated at the masjid, as has been pointed out in the fatwa I posted above, then why would it be any less different at a wedding, where women will come who are not covered and have beautified themselves, where men will come who have all the wrong intentions in their hearts. It's all about prevention rather than cure.

I know you're not saying it is haraam to have a separate wedding if one wishes to do so. But you're also saying it's not haraam if you have a mixed wedding, with people sitting side-by-side, intermingling etc. Segregation is not a cultural thing. It is clearly from Islaam, and if you have any fatwa from any scholar out there who says otherwise, then bring forward your proof.

Otherwise, please leave your own personal judgements aside.

If Islaam was taught and practiced properly in these so called Islamic countries, the problems that arise wouldn't be so widespread. But even at the time of the prophet :saw: there were people who lived a life of haraam. We can not lay the blame fully on the government. But that's a discussion in and of itself.

[Sammer]

Doing one thing in the sight of one person, and another thing in the sight of another, does not mean we go and change the rulings to suit our needs.

If it was commanded to be segregated at the masjid, as has been pointed out in the fatwa I posted above, then why would it be any less different at a wedding, where women will come who are not covered and have beautified themselves, where men will come who have all the wrong intentions in their hearts. It's all about prevention rather than cure.

I know you're not saying it is haraam to have a separate wedding if one wishes to do so. But you're also saying it's not haraam if you have a mixed wedding, with people sitting side-by-side, intermingling etc. Segregation is not a cultural thing. It is clearly from Islaam, and if you have any fatwa from any scholar out there who says otherwise, then bring forward your proof.

Otherwise, please leave your own personal judgements aside.

If Islaam was taught and practiced properly in these so called Islamic countries, the problems that arise wouldn't be so widespread. But even at the time of the prophet :saw: there were people who lived a life of haraam. We can not lay the blame fully on the government. But that's a discussion in and of itself.


I have given very clear points and I'll sum them up again:

* I do not have to prove mixed weddings are halal - you have to prove it is haram. This is the general rule in fiqh. The burden of proof is on you.

*No evidence in our deen's sources of banning "mixed" weddings as long as the tenets of Islam are met

*Never in the history of mankind has a segregated society existed.

*From the time of the Prophet until the Ottomon Empire, men and women learnt from one another, taught one another and built empires never seen before.

*Every book you read by a great Imam is divided into chapters like 'Kitabul Jihad" Kitabul Akhlaak" and so forth. I have yet to see 'Kitabul Ikhtilaat' or the "book of mixing".

That's because it was never an issue. No scholar even found it remotely important enough to write about it.

The copy and paste job you posted above has already been countered in my posts. I said men and women "mix" right in front of the Kaba in the holiest of Holy's - Mecca. When the prophet and his companions migrated to Medina, they all travelled walking together, men and women, right?

I gave you a list of scholars whose main teachers were women.

I'm not advocating unisex bathrooms or any extreme. Just saying men and women in a reception hall together, observing their modesty and being happy for the bride and groom is not haraam.

It's not haram to be happy for others and have fun in an Islamic manner.

I'm sure you were very surprised when you read the hadeeths about the prophet and the sa7aba and how they used to joke. Very funny!

[Rubaiyat]

Here (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547270) is a pretty good explanation.

Question: Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. What is the ruling on men and women being together for weddings? Jazakum Allah khayran.

Answer:
Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Islam does not object to events or gatherings where members of the opposite sex are present in the same place as long as all abide by the Islamic teachings and manners. If such gatherings abide by the Shari`ah rulings, then there is nothing wrong with them. What is forbidden is khalwah (seclusion or between two members of the opposite sex); tabarruj (revealing women's attractions and `awrahs and all other forbidden acts such as seductive talk or walk); and physical contact between members of the opposite sex. Therefore, if the mixed wedding sticks to these instructions, it is allowed. But if people do not abide by these conditions—which is common nowadays—then the presence of men and women in the same place is unlawful.

Responding to the question you raised, the European Council for Fatwa and Research issued the following fatwa:

The term “mixed” is one which is not used by either the Qur’an or the Sunnah, while most people believe it to be an unquestionable matter in Islam, as though there were something in the Qur’an or in the Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) that states clearly that mixed congregations are haram (forbidden). This is one of the grave mistakes which many Muslims commit today, unfortunately.

Our opinion in this matter is that Islamic Shari`ah did not object to men and women being present in one place on condition that three matters are avoided and refrained from:

First: Seclusion (khalwah), that is, that a man and woman meet in a place where no one else can see them.

Second: Adornment of women, that is, that a woman uncovers what Allah (Mighty and Exalted be He) decreed to be covered of her body, or she wears perfume or jewelry or walks or talks in such a way that draws attention and raises ill-thoughts and feelings.

Third: Physical contact.
If these three matters are avoided and refrained from, then there remains no legal objection to the congregation, whether it be a marriage ceremony or any other thing else. However, we see that people often do not abide by these conditions in weddings, and thus the presence of men and women in one place becomes unlawful.

[Rubaiyat]

From the above explanation, it is clear that so long the Islamic conditions are met, there is nothing wrong in "mixing". I guess that's the point of Sammer as well. I agree.

But to be honest, so far I'm yet to attend any "mixed" wedding where at least one of the three conditions are not broken. It's going from one extreme to the other.

[Sammer]

Here (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547270) is a pretty good explanation.

Question: Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. What is the ruling on men and women being together for weddings? Jazakum Allah khayran.

Answer:
Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Islam does not object to events or gatherings where members of the opposite sex are present in the same place as long as all abide by the Islamic teachings and manners. If such gatherings abide by the Shari`ah rulings, then there is nothing wrong with them. What is forbidden is khalwah (seclusion or between two members of the opposite sex); tabarruj (revealing women's attractions and `awrahs and all other forbidden acts such as seductive talk or walk); and physical contact between members of the opposite sex. Therefore, if the mixed wedding sticks to these instructions, it is allowed. But if people do not abide by these conditions—which is common nowadays—then the presence of men and women in the same place is unlawful.

Responding to the question you raised, the European Council for Fatwa and Research issued the following fatwa:

The term “mixed” is one which is not used by either the Qur’an or the Sunnah, while most people believe it to be an unquestionable matter in Islam, as though there were something in the Qur’an or in the Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) that states clearly that mixed congregations are haram (forbidden). This is one of the grave mistakes which many Muslims commit today, unfortunately.

Our opinion in this matter is that Islamic Shari`ah did not object to men and women being present in one place on condition that three matters are avoided and refrained from:

First: Seclusion (khalwah), that is, that a man and woman meet in a place where no one else can see them.

Second: Adornment of women, that is, that a woman uncovers what Allah (Mighty and Exalted be He) decreed to be covered of her body, or she wears perfume or jewelry or walks or talks in such a way that draws attention and raises ill-thoughts and feelings.

Third: Physical contact.
If these three matters are avoided and refrained from, then there remains no legal objection to the congregation, whether it be a marriage ceremony or any other thing else. However, we see that people often do not abide by these conditions in weddings, and thus the presence of men and women in one place becomes unlawful.

Ok, I now rest my case.

[Abu Layla]

Sorry sister, but I think what Sammer means is that no intermingling (free-mixing) is taking place, he's saying that Islamic manners are being upheld... but the people are in the same area. Just like when we walk down the street and deal with people at shops and shopping centres and in the general public.

What I feel he's saying is that if there is nothing haraam at a wedding then segregation is not an issue.

Is the question arising here now whether or not segregation at a wedding is a must or not?

[Umm Jannah]

OMG sarah, they forgot about it??? Now that is a classic way of "Why I have never attended my relo's wedding lol" :D

[Abu Layla]

One could say that this forum is haram because there is mixing. Would that be right? If there is PM'ing with useless nonesense and flirting with non-mahrams then that would be an issue. Or even flirting or useless chit chat in public. Do we segregate the forum too? Because it can lead to fitnah...? How far do we take it?

Some women don't feel comfortable in front of men. Some men don't feel comfortable in front of women. I personally think that more fun can be had when it is segregated as you don't have to be concerned about doing something, that in front of someone of the opposite gender, could be wrong.

However, I remember reading that when men used to deal with `Ayesha radiAllaahu `anha, they used to do so without seeing her. And that when she would teach them it would be from behind a screen? She was very knowledgeable and men used to seek fatawa and advice from her because she knew the Prophet :saw: so well obviously.

[chickenrice]

chickenrice: I think the parents know the kids don't want to go and why but they still force it. I know in those families it isn't as simple as saying I don't want to go and that's it.

Yes, I understand some families are different. Perhaps it's time for the children in these families to take a stand - if they feel they are strong enough to and are able to - otherwise their entire lives will consist of lying to and/or appeasing parents who don't understand the difference between culture and religion, up until the point where the children are married themselves (and even beyond that in some circumstances). Maybe it isn't a bad thing for the parents to get a "wakeup call" and the pain of causing the parents to lose face by not attending a family member's wedding will be worth it in the long run.

If the children don't feel they are able to stand up to their parents in a forthright manner, then may Allah make it easy on them.

On another topic - out of curiosity, will your attendance at a mixed wedding (where you know haram acts will be committed) be excused on the Day of Judgement if you feel you were forced to do something against your will by your parents?

[SuBMiSSioN]

Second: Adornment of women, that is, that a woman uncovers what Allah (Mighty and Exalted be He) decreed to be covered of her body, or she wears perfume or jewelry or walks or talks in such a way that draws attention and raises ill-thoughts and feelings.

Third: Physical contact.
If these three matters are avoided and refrained from, then there remains no legal objection to the congregation, whether it be a marriage ceremony or any other thing else. However, we see that people often do not abide by these conditions in weddings, and thus the presence of men and women in one place becomes unlawful.

And I rest mine..

[Sammer]

Good, so we agree if a wedding has men and women together and Islamic principles are observed then it's 100% halal.

We come to agreement at last.

[cheesegirl]

^The point the sisters were trying to make is that Islamic principles are not upheld udring such weddings, hence why they are almost all haram these days.

They said very explicitly that women come to such weddings dressed indecently, and men take the opportunity as an excuse to act indecently, and if that is the case, Islamic principles are 100% not being upheld.

[*saRah*]

As sallamu 3allaykum,

ok interesting thread no doubt. Some interesting points i never though about, so jazakuallahu khair, and thanks everyone for ur help wallah if i didnt take the advice i woulda felt lost, thanx guys masha'Allah!!!

Anyways, Alhamdullilah i didnt go to the wedding :D. I want to tell everyone what happened, and man did i make it clear i won't attend any other weddings if its mixed, but wallah me and mum spoke like grown ups :) i feel so happy.

Anyways in the car, my mums like we have to close early cos we have to go the wedding, and i was like huh, what wedding? (acting as if i forgot, which it didnt work loll) She's like (name's) wedding, and then i said ohhhhh and i went red and quiet (i go red when i think alot, like a lobster), but i didnt stay quiet for long, so then i said mum i'm not going cos its mixed, and then she said, but why he's your cousin etc...and i said, I don't want to go to something that is haram, when i can just go and visit his wife at home after the wedding, she went quiet, and she said, OK then, it's up to you and i can't force you to do anything! And subhanAllah when she said that it hit me, that Allah subhanahu wa ta3alah answered my prayers, cos this was the easiest convo i have ever had, and she took it so easy, usually the cars outside can hear her voice loll, masha'allah :o Anyways, shes like ok stay at home but make sure you do the 3 loads of washing! LOL i felt like cinderella, but without a prince. umm off topic, but yeah thats my story. SubhanAllah i worry to much, but i have learnt that if something goes against Islam, and u are coerced in doing this action, then making du'a and getting help from Allah subhanahu wa ta3alah will surely make things easy. ALOT easier :) alhamdullilah

anyways, take care everyone :)

wa3allaykum wassalam wa rahmatualahi wa barakatuhu

[cheesegirl]

:salam:

Mashaallah, awesome! :D

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

:wasalam:

You're such a beautiful sis *saRah* - i'm happy things worked they way they did for you :) Alhumdulillah.

[Lena]

Subhan'Allah.. *Hugs* Sarah.. :)

[*saRah*]

lol jazakuallahu khair! we girls are very emotional, I got so happy, not only cos i didnt go to the wedding, but because i thought that there was no chance i was gonna stay at home, and subhanAllah i did, and it was so easy. jazakuallahu khair girls, im pretty happy tonight alhamdullilah, but I'm still upset 80% of my family are there, Allah yehdiyun wa yehdinah janee3an.

[aussiemu]

masha'Allah good stuff Sarah. may Allah protect you from all future haram scenarios. :)

Du'a is definately the most powerful tool.

[SuBMiSSioN]

As sallamu 3allaykum,

And subhanAllah when she said that it hit me, that Allah subhanahu wa ta3alah answered my prayers, cos this was the easiest convo i have ever had, and she took it so easy, usually the cars outside can hear her voice loll, masha'allah :o
wa3allaykum wassalam wa rahmatualahi wa barakatuhu

lol Alhumdulillaah, reminds me of the convo we had on Saturday. Subhan'Allaah, the power of duaa is amazing, and when you can see the change right in front of your eyes, it hits twice as hard :)

[*saRah*]

ameen to ur du'a Aussiemu, jazakuallahu khairan.
subbs, spot on subhanAllah, i actually thought abt that after me and my mums talk, subhanAllah!

[Umm Jannah]

Masha Allaah Sarah :D

Alhamdulilaah, see Allaah Has answered your call before the night of the wedding, Allaahu Akbar!

Ameen to your du'a, now in sha Allaah you make du'a for your family and be patient with them... :) *huggz*

[*F@ttY*]

That's great to hear ya sarah!!!

Alhamdulillah Allah SWT helped you through this. May you be successful in this life and the next. Ameen

[chickenrice]

Very proud of you Sarah - that's fantastic. LOL see our parents aren't that bad if we are honest with them. And if the situation arises again in the future it'll be easier.

[Islam=My_Light]

Good for ya sarah :thumbsup: I'm soo happy for you!

[MrWarraEnib]

well done sarah...... what a boring night at home ....i played cricket wohooo!!!!

[Sammer]

Went to a fruit salad (mixed) wedding and allahmdulilah it was very nice and it proved you can do it without any haram. So glad it went that way!

[مروة]

Segregated weddings give each gender more freedom in celebrating... Many of the sisters like to dress up and wear make up and sing and dance which is not something they shud do in front of the guys..

I dunno about u .. but most weddings ive seen*especially arab ones* have men and women dancing... U cud find women with hijab on and dancing infront of the men..

I personally dont see the logic behind it being mixed

[Sammer]

Yeah but as I already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt backed by several scholars that others here posted, there's no such thing as "mixed" weddings as the term is something we made up to justify our cultural preferences. There is absolutely no room in Islam for such a term so we should stop thinking it's "non-Islamic" to have "mixed" weddings.

Now if segregated weddings are someone's cup of tea so the sexes can have their own fun in a relaxed environment, then that's fine too. It's not haraam.

Neither is having a "mixed" wedding as long as the terms mentioned are adhered to - it's all a matter of choice and comfort for each individual.

I attended a talk late last year and there were guys, 3 of them blowing steam out of their eyeballs and nostrills. So I said 'whats up?' and they yelled

"BROTHER!! THERE"S MIXING!"

:greasy:

You don't wanna hear what happened next.

[Tay_]

Segregated weddings give each gender more freedom in celebrating... Many of the sisters like to dress up and wear make up and sing and dance which is not something they shud do in front of the guys..

I dunno about u .. but most weddings ive seen*especially arab ones* have men and women dancing... U cud find women with hijab on and dancing infront of the men..

I personally dont see the logic behind it being mixed

My walimah was "mixed" in that there were males and females under the one roof. There was no singing other than nasheeds and there was no music as well as dancing. Those who wanted to dance danced at the girls night. I found it far more practical to have everyone under the one location rather than have it at different locations

[Umm Jannah]

Interesting, so girls danced at the girls night only?

What did all do beside listening to Anasheed?

Teach us something new :)

[Umm Jannah]

Yeah but as I already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt backed by several scholars that others here posted, there's no such thing as "mixed" weddings as the term is something we made up to justify our cultural preferences. There is absolutely no room in Islam for such a term so we should stop thinking it's "non-Islamic" to have "mixed" weddings.

Now if segregated weddings are someone's cup of tea so the sexes can have their own fun in a relaxed environment, then that's fine too. It's not haraam.

Neither is having a "mixed" wedding as long as the terms mentioned are adhered to - it's all a matter of choice and comfort for each individual.

I attended a talk late last year and there were guys, 3 of them blowing steam out of their eyeballs and nostrills. So I said 'whats up?' and they yelled

"BROTHER!! THERE"S MIXING!"

:greasy:

You don't wanna hear what happened next.

Hmmm...but how do you have the seating arrangements? every family sits in a table?

And did females show up without make up and looking flashy :confused:

Help me digest the idea...Its all new to me if its not what I am imagining.

[Precious-Muslimah]

Salam folks,

In my culture, if you don't have a mixed wedding, you're not considered as having a wedding the whole city will talk about for weeks. So if your wedding isn't talked about for weeks, then amm looks like you wasted a whole lotta dough! My mum, just the other night, asked me to go to a wedding. It was being taped and it was mixed. Big NO! Women can have so much more fun without men being around and knowing your not being recorded, so you can let your hair down and party all night! :d! Anywhoo sister Sarah, I think I came too late, the wedding's already past! :d!

W/salam.

[Precious-Muslimah]

Salam folks,

In my culture, if you don't have a mixed wedding, you're not considered as having a wedding the whole city will talk about for weeks. So if your wedding isn't talked about for weeks, then amm looks like you wasted a whole lotta dough! My mum, just the other night, asked me to go to a wedding. It was being taped and it was mixed. Big NO! Women can have so much more fun without men being around and knowing your not being recorded, so you can let your hair down and party all night! :hooray: Anywhoo sister Sarah, I think I came too late, the wedding's already past! :brow:

W/salam.

[Sammer]

Hmmm...but how do you have the seating arrangements? every family sits in a table?

And did females show up without make up and looking flashy :confused:

Help me digest the idea...Its all new to me if its not what I am imagining.

Well every family at at a table with another family.

Females showed up 99.9% in hijab and looked and behaved more decent than 99.9% of women you see in a shopping centre or the CBD on any given day.

Pretty normal I guess.

[SuBMiSSioN]

99.9% showed up in hijab.. which means.. if there were 100 ladies at the wedding then 10 of them wouldn't have been in hijab. I'd wonder what these 10 women were wearing, and if that would change the whole perspective on having a "mixed" wedding.

Let me remind you of one of the fatwas that were posted earlier on in this thread..


Our opinion in this matter is that Islamic Shari`ah did not object to men and women being present in one place on condition that three matters are avoided and refrained from:

First: Seclusion (khalwah), that is, that a man and woman meet in a place where no one else can see them.

Second: Adornment of women, that is, that a woman uncovers what Allah (Mighty and Exalted be He) decreed to be covered of her body, or she wears perfume or jewelry or walks or talks in such a way that draws attention and raises ill-thoughts and feelings.

Third: Physical contact.
If these three matters are avoided and refrained from, then there remains no legal objection to the congregation, whether it be a marriage ceremony or any other thing else. However, we see that people often do not abide by these conditions in weddings, and thus the presence of men and women in one place becomes unlawful.

The three matters mentioned above must be avoided TOTALLY. That means, every single person who is there, male or female, must be dressed modestly. If one woman shows up dressed immodestly, that alone will bring more attention to herself than anything else.

[aussiemu]

assalamu alaikum,

Does that make going to a dinner with family, visiting a relatives house, dinner at a restaurant, dinner at a fundraiser, going to an Islamic lecture and so forth impermissable if one woman isn't covered?

wassalamu alaikum

[SuBMiSSioN]

Again, there's a difference between going out for dinner, a lecture, shopping or whatever else, and going to a wedding. You can't control the environment at these kinds of places, but at your own wedding, you can.

[Sammer]

99.9% showed up in hijab.. which means.. if there were 100 ladies at the wedding then 10 of them wouldn't have been in hijab. I'd wonder what these 10 women were wearing, and if that would change the whole perspective on having a "mixed" wedding.

I think you have your maths mixed up. I said 99.9% not 90%. That would make less than a woman, not 10 as you incorrectly pointed out. And I say that because I saw 1 or 2 not in hijab. And I see half naked women on the street and in shops and in stores everyday. So do you. Let's stop pretending we don't.

And anyway, when you go to a festival or park and see Muslims not wearing hijab, you will then judge them as well and say they are not worthy of our prescence? If this is the approach, I don't agree with it.



Quote:
Our opinion in this matter is that Islamic Shari`ah did not object to men and women being present in one place on condition that three matters are avoided and refrained from:

First: Seclusion (khalwah), that is, that a man and woman meet in a place where no one else can see them.

Second: Adornment of women, that is, that a woman uncovers what Allah (Mighty and Exalted be He) decreed to be covered of her body, or she wears perfume or jewelry or walks or talks in such a way that draws attention and raises ill-thoughts and feelings.

Third: Physical contact.
If these three matters are avoided and refrained from, then there remains no legal objection to the congregation, whether it be a marriage ceremony or any other thing else. However, we see that people often do not abide by these conditions in weddings, and thus the presence of men and women in one place becomes unlawful.

Firstly there was no physical contact like you get when you ride a train. Secondly, there was no adornment. Thirdly there was no khulwah. So the points are invalid.



The three matters mentioned above must be avoided TOTALLY. That means, every single person who is there, male or female, must be dressed modestly. If one woman shows up dressed immodestly, that alone will bring more attention to herself than anything else.

99.9% showed up in hijab.. which means.. if there were 100 ladies at the wedding then 10 of them wouldn't have been in hijab. I'd wonder what these 10 women were wearing, and if that would change the whole perspective on having a "mixed" wedding.


Really?

You really need to stop looking at people in such a homogenous manner. The scholars are referring to the general environment not every individual. You just place people as if they all have the same level of Imaan, understanding and practice and it doesn't work that way.

A girl had a bad life that she regrets and she is starting to get religious. After not prostrating her head for 15 years, she finally comes towards Allah (swt). Her friends welcome her and invite her to a wedding and everyone is in hijab and she's not. She already feels a bit out of place. Throughout the whole wedding she is aksing questions about Islam. She doesn;t want to wear the hijab just yet which is fine for now. So we call off the whole thing because of one or two people?

Let's use our heads for a second. You can't control individuals as much as you would like.

You "mix" everyday when you walk on the street and when you go shopping and when you go to the bank and there is music playing in the stores too and lets not forget the prescence of men and women kissing each other publicly as well.

And let me also remind you there is no such thing as "mixed". Never has been.

[Umm Jannah]

How about the bride? looking better than Cinderella before 12 am??

Will Allaah swt not ask her husband why he did bring attention to his mahram?

I am :confused:

[Sammer]

What about the bride?

She was with her husband and family.

I don't get it?

[Umm Jannah]

Me in my wedding night in niqab lol :rofl:

Sorry, my little sister was around and she was teasing me if I planned it that way :/

[Sammer]

It was nice, they had a video of the bride and groom when they were babies then growing up...like a timeline.

Was nice.

Then the bride said a few words (yes, she's allowed to speak), the groom said a beautiful poem and the father's spoke (mothers were in tears as usual).

Then dinner.

We prayed in between as well, the groom led us of course.

All in all, a lovely evening.

[Umm Jannah]

What about the bride?

She was with her husband and family.

I don't get it?

I am not talking about her, I am asking you regarding you opinion, she might not have make-up on, added a scarf to her wedding dress....etc

But I am saying you are encouraging the idea where other sisters want to look better than Cinderella for their husbands....And for every time a strange man looks at his wife, isn't he sinning for that?

Gheera Ya3ni, I am talking about... :confused:

[Umm Jannah]

Sweet, (I don't care if she was allowed or not) but how about dancing?

You don't encourage it?

[Sammer]

I am not talking about her, I am asking you regarding you opinion, she might not have make-up on, added a scarf to her wedding dress....etc

But I am saying you are encouraging the idea where other sisters want to look better than Cinderella for their husbands....And for every time a strange man looks at his wife, isn't he sinning for that?

Gheera Ya3ni, I am talking about...

She had a hijab yes with her dress.

If a man stares at another's wife, the sin is on the starer not on the woman or her husband. We do not bear the sins of others. And we do not imprison our women because of others.

[Sammer]

Sweet, (I don't care if she was allowed or not) but how about dancing?

You don't encourage it?

Not between men and women! :D

The reception had a separate facility area where the women went for like an hour to do their own thing. But there was no dancing between men and women, no.

[aussiemu]

Sorry sis I disagree. I don't see how a guest can control the environment at a wedding either. If someone who is known to be religious is having a wedding and there is no music or dancing and most people are acting Islamically, I don't see how it will become impermissible based on one or a few people not covered.

And I don't agree that these other places are that much different. We know uncovered women are at restaurants, at lectures, at fundraisers etc so the solution would be don't attend then. It isn't a matter of necessity as much as say going to a supermarket or walking down the street which is unavoidable.

I also think it would be best if people consult their local shaykhs about these matters as in this case where the fatwa above is quoted is from Saudi and the Saudi environment is VERY different to Australia. Here it is extremely easy to never ever be in the same room as an uncovered woman. Infact it would be quite weird to be in a room with an uncovered woman. I don't believe that is the same case in Australia where women uncovered is the norm not the exception.

Before anyone gets me wrong - I think segregation is part of Islam and that things should generally be segregated where possible. Men and women separately is the least likely to cause fitnah but I don't think men and women being in the same place alone makes something haram.

And the reality is that most weddings where it is mixed are filled with other haram. The few cases where it is not are an exception.

[SuBMiSSioN]

If I was to walk out on the street, half naked, having the rest of the world staring at me, then yes.. I would be sinning.

If I was to enter a reception, in a wedding dress, looking all made-up on my wedding night, and have other men staring at me, then yes again, I would be sinning.

It's not about locking women up in their homes, it's not about not allowing them to speak up in public. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about women walking around dressed to impress, in front of non-mahram men. Now try and put a spin on that to halalify it.

[*F@ttY*]

HALALIFY! What a lovely word! I'm gonna use it now!

[SuBMiSSioN]

Before anyone gets me wrong - I think segregation is part of Islam and that things should generally be segregated where possible. Men and women separately is the least likely to cause fitnah but I don't think men and women being in the same place alone makes something haram.

And the reality is that most weddings where it is mixed are filled with other haram. The few cases where it is not are an exception.

That's exactly my point though. It's the fitnah that is caused.. you can not say that there is no fitnah involved with it.

And exactly..we're in Australia..where I would say most women are uncovered, and so having a "mixed" wedding here in Australia would mean having many women show up at the wedding who aren't in hijab, and this would no doubt cause fitnah. I don't see how anyone can say otherwise? :confused:

[Sammer]

Sorry sis I disagree. I don't see how a guest can control the environment at a wedding either. If someone who is known to be religious is having a wedding and there is no music or dancing and most people are acting Islamically, I don't see how it will become impermissible based on one or a few people not covered.

And I don't agree that these other places are that much different. We know uncovered women are at restaurants, at lectures, at fundraisers etc so the solution would be don't attend then. It isn't a matter of necessity as much as say going to a supermarket or walking down the street which is unavoidable.

I also think it would be best if people consult their local shaykhs about these matters as in this case where the fatwa above is quoted is from Saudi and the Saudi environment is VERY different to Australia. Here it is extremely easy to never ever be in the same room as an uncovered woman. Infact it would be quite weird to be in a room with an uncovered woman. I don't believe that is the same case in Australia where women uncovered is the norm not the exception.

Man up to this point, I felt you were spot on!



Before anyone gets me wrong - I think segregation is part of Islam and that things should generally be segregated where possible. Men and women separately is the least likely to cause fitnah but I don't think men and women being in the same place alone makes something haram.

Segregation is not part of Islam and it never has been sister. Society has never been segregated, either islamic or non. Of course we need to stike a balance. Groups of people together is permisible because there's no khulwah. Like in a market or store or family restaurant. Even if they are not wearing hijab. You made an excellent point about taking a fatwa from another country like saudi Arabia and pasting it to a country like Australia which doesn't work most of the time.

I mentioned the results of segregating people to the extreme and the opposite effect it ends up having on people and used my whipping boy Saudi as an example.

But being alone with the opposite sex or physically touching them is where it's banned.

[Umm Jannah]

If I was to walk out on the street, half naked, having the rest of the world staring at me, then yes.. I would be sinning.

If I was to enter a reception, in a wedding dress, looking all made-up on my wedding night, and have other men staring at me, then yes again, I would be sinning.

It's not about locking women up in their homes, it's not about not allowing them to speak up in public. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about women walking around dressed to impress, in front of non-mahram men. Now try and put a spin on that to halalify it.

:) :jzk:

[SuBMiSSioN]

And even if most of the women were in hijab, and one or two or ten women were to show up without hijab, the women without hijab would stand out in the crowd, just as they would stand out in the crowd in Saudi.

And yeah, I got my calculations wrong, but who cares. 10, 5 or 2. Same difference really.. my point still stands.

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

egregation is not part of Islam and it never has been sister.

That's a very general statement. At the very least there is segregation at the masaajid, to the point that at the time of the Prophet :saw:, after he gave the salaam at the end of the prayer, the men would sit and stay in their positions for a while to allow the women at the back rows to leave and not be seen by men.

I'm not saying that EVERYTHING is segregated in Islam, but to say that segregation is not part of Islam and it never has been, is just too general.

[Umm Jannah]

She had a hijab yes with her dress.

If a man stares at another's wife, the sin is on the starer not on the woman or her husband. We do not bear the sins of others. And we do not imprison our women because of others.

How about Gheera? Gheera? GHEERA? :confused: :eek:

Let's say you were the Groom, was not it you who let the men see her?

If you are walking down the street with her that's something else, but in a wedding, you are brining attention to your wife, she would look stunning akhi, you telling me you won't do zaffa? (be honest) :rolleyes:

[Umm Jannah]

Not between men and women! :D

The reception had a separate facility area where the women went for like an hour to do their own thing. But there was no dancing between men and women, no.

Alhamdulilaah, we agreed on no dancing on the same dance floor.

[Sammer]

If I was to walk out on the street, half naked, having the rest of the world staring at me, then yes.. I would be sinning.

The opposite of hijab is not being half naked. You can have everything covered except your hair and not be in hijab. Hijabi's get harassed, niqabis get harassed and they harass back. Not all of them - but it happens and it happens more in Muslim countries.



If I was to enter a reception, in a wedding dress, looking all made-up on my wedding night, and have other men staring at me, then yes again, I would be sinning.

Do you propose going to your wedding looking like you just woke up?



It's not about locking women up in their homes, it's not about not allowing them to speak up in public. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about women walking around dressed to impress, in front of non-mahram men. Now try and put a spin on that to halalify it.

Ouch.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I was talking generally. Sorry you took it so personally, it was not intended that way.

As for dressing to impressing, again - do you want the Muslim woman to look dirty and unkept?

What if she wants to go to a wedding because she was told about a possible husband for her and she wanted to look nice to give a good impression? Why can't she wear a nice dress that matches her scarf and handbag and shoes and whatever else?

She sits with her father and mother and brothers at the table and she's not dancing, or jumping or sliding.

What is the issue?

[SuBMiSSioN]

The hijab means to dress modestly, it means to hide away your beauty, to not bring any sort of attention to yourself. A woman, in a wedding dress, on her wedding night, with a scarf over her head or not, will bring attention to herself.

Oh, and btw, if there was no segregation in Islaam, then why don't men and women pray next to one another?? Side-by-side, feet-to-feet? But that'd be another topic all together.

[Sammer]

And even if most of the women were in hijab, and one or two or ten women were to show up without hijab, the women without hijab would stand out in the crowd, just as they would stand out in the crowd in Saudi.

And yeah, I got my calculations wrong, but who cares. 10, 5 or 2. Same difference really.. my point still stands.

So what if they are not wearing hijab? That's between them and allah (swt). If they are behaving and respecting the social rules, I can't see a prob?

[Sammer]

How about Gheera? Gheera? GHEERA?

Let's say you were the Groom, was not it you who let the men see her?

If you are walking down the street with her that's something else, but in a wedding, you are brining attention to your wife, she would look stunning akhi, you telling me you won't do zaffa? (be honest)

Eh?

Every man has Gheera and that's why its up to he individual if they want to invite men and women at the same place or no. Some feel more comfortable separately.

[SuBMiSSioN]

The hijab is not just a piece of material over a girls head. Dressing modestly, with no scarf, does not fulfill the criteria of the hijab. It's got nothing to do with getting harassed.. that's a completely different topic all together.

We have to understand that if a woman is not in FULL hijab, then she is sinning. It's really quite simple to understand..

[Sammer]

The hijab means to dress modestly, it means to hide away your beauty, to not bring any sort of attention to yourself. A woman, in a wedding dress, on her wedding night, with a scarf over her head or not, will bring attention to herself.

Maybe in certain cultures. not in Australia. After the first 10 minutes, everyone's talking among thesmelves anyway complaining about anything they can think of.



Oh, and btw, if there was no segregation in Islaam, then why don't men and women pray next to one another?? Side-by-side, feet-to-feet? But that'd be another topic all together.

Because that would mean touching and that's not allowed.

[sUbMiTa]

OMG you guys are going around in circles. :confused:

Anywayzzz i can't keep my eyes open anylonger so maybe ill come back to this thread and read it next time im on inshAllah. :rolleyes:

But in the meantime why don't ya all just agree to disagree. :D

[aussiemu]

Sammer: I believe lessening fitnah is part of Islam (which is what segregated gatherings tend to do) and I don't agree with you that it has nothing to do with Islam. However, I didn't state that gatherings where women and men are together are haram in and of itself (unless obviously other haram aspects are part of it).

There is a difference between what is better and what is actually haram. There is a qaida in the shariah that states: "dar'u al-mafasid muqaddam 'ala jalb al-masalih" ("averting causes of corruption has precedence over bringing about benefit").

I believe lessening the fitnah between women and men through segregation is something which is better/recommended in Islam. I'm sure you will find many scholars who will say the same thing.

I think you should respect the difference of opinion since you appear to follow a different opinion and not try to claim that it is something that has no basis in Islam as there are many great scholars who will disagree with you.

[Umm Jannah]

Eh?

Every man has Gheera and that's why its up to he individual if they want to invite men and women at the same place or no. Some feel more comfortable separately.

Not every man has Gheera, otherwise there wasn't going to be such a saheeh hadeeth:



النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: "ثلاثة لا ينظر الله عز وجل إليهم يوم القيامة: العاق لوالديه، والمرأة المترجلة، والديوث



There is a type of a man who's Al-dayooth..

[Sammer]

Sammer: I believe lessening fitnah is part of Islam (which is what segregated gatherings tend to do) and I don't agree with you that it has nothing to do with Islam. However, I didn't state that gatherings where women and men are together are haram in and of itself (unless obviously other haram aspects are part of it).

Its ok, we can disagree. I say it's not part of Islam because I gave my evidence earlier on this thread. I'm not encouraging it, just that if it occurs, it's not haraam.



There is a difference between what is better and what is actually haram. There is a qaida in the shariah that states: "dar'u al-mafasid muqaddam 'ala jalb al-masalih" ("averting causes of corruption has precedence over bringing about benefit").

Jazkallah for the reminder.


I believe lessening the fitnah between women and men through segregation is something which is better/recommended in Islam. I'm sure you will find many scholars who will say the same thing.

The problem with this is its not working because Islam never asked us to segregate the sexes. Mighty scholars learnt from each other, men and women of the past. Publicly.

Saudi Arabia has a very high rate of homosexuality and lesbianism and pre-marital sex because they think keeping males and females apart is the way to go. It's not natural otherwise there would have been a very clear explicit command from Prophet Muhammad (saw) or Allah (swt) and there isn't.


I think you should respect the difference of opinion since you appear to follow a different opinion and not try to claim that it is something that has no basis in Islam as there are many great scholars who will disagree with you.

Let's differentiate here. I am not saying weddings have to be "mixed". I am saying the concept of "mixing" and segregating the sexes is foreign to Islam. It was never recorded during anytime in history of humanity. Including the prophet (pbuh). The fatwa posted clearly backed up my original claim and that is - the word "mixing" is not found in our sources.

It's tradition and culture.

Thats ok since it doesn't contradict Islam however taking it to the extreme does.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Umm Jannah]

Sammer: I believe lessening fitnah is part of Islam (which is what segregated gatherings tend to do) and I don't agree with you that it has nothing to do with Islam. However, I didn't state that gatherings where women and men are together are haram in and of itself (unless obviously other haram aspects are part of it).

There is a difference between what is better and what is actually haram. There is a qaida in the shariah that states: "dar'u al-mafasid muqaddam 'ala jalb al-masalih" ("averting causes of corruption has precedence over bringing about benefit").

I believe lessening the fitnah between women and men through segregation is something which is better/recommended in Islam. I'm sure you will find many scholars who will say the same thing.

I think you should respect the difference of opinion since you appear to follow a different opinion and not try to claim that it is something that has no basis in Islam as there are many great scholars who will disagree with you.

Jazaakillaahu Khayran, Mukhtasar Mufeed 2007 :thumbsup:

[Sammer]

Not every man has Gheera, otherwise there wasn't going to be such a saheeh hadeeth:



النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: "ثلاثة لا ينظر الله عز وجل إليهم يوم القيامة: العاق لوالديه، والمرأة المترجلة، والديوث



There is a type of a man who's Al-dayooth wal'eyathobillaah...

Thank you for the correction - most men, hehe.

[Umm Jannah]

So you agree Al-Dayooth who lets his wife adorn herself in front of the strangers?

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

Here's the hadith i was referring to earlier.


Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

Evidence Prohibiting Of Mixing Of Men And Women (http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1200&ln=eng&txt=mixing)

[Umm Jannah]

Another question, where did the prophet Muhammad :saw: face when he to used give out talks where men and women attended?

Subhana Allaah...:)

[Sammer]

Here's the hadith i was referring to earlier.


Quote:
Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

#1 - The hadith clearly states men and women were praying in the same mosque, same area.

#2 - The prophet asked the women to leave first because not to get bumped or crushed on the way out since there was only one entrance.

#3 - Another hadith, Sahih, Bukhari (I can get the exact reference) states after prayers one day Allah's Messenger turned to the men and said

"Who among you sleeps with his wife and goes among you and says he did such and such last night. The men kept quiet. Then he turned to the women and said 'Who of you sleeps with her husband and tells among you I did such and such with my husband last night?" The women kept quiet. Then a lady stood on her knees, raised her hand and said "By Allah, the women to it and the men do it" And that's when the Prophet forbade such a practice.

Again, men and women were together in the same place as evidenced by the hadith.

So trying to make something haram ("mixing) that's not is counter productive.

[SuBMiSSioN]

The problem with this is its not working because Islam never asked us to segregate the sexes. Mighty scholars learnt from each other, men and women of the past. Publicly.

Saudi Arabia has a very high rate of homosexuality and lesbianism and pre-marital sex because they think keeping males and females apart is the way to go. It's not natural otherwise there would have been a very clear explicit command from Prophet Muhammad (saw) or Allah (swt) and there isn't.
Yes..they learnt from each other, but again, these women were in proper hijab. If women were to gather together with members of the opposite sex, in proper hijab, doing what is needed to be done, I don't see a problem with this either.

Also, there is segregation to an extent. For eg, at a lecture, yes men and women are present at the same venue.. but you will get women sitting behind the men. Same with the masjid, the women will be praying behind the men. So.. why are women behind the men and not in front?

[Sammer]

Another question, where did the prophet Muhammad :saw: face when he to used give out talks where men and women attended?

Subhana Allaah...:)

He used to look into the face of who was talking to him.

The opening verse of Surah 58 is not referring to sign language :)

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

#1 - The hadith clearly states men and women were praying in the same mosque, same area.

Absolutely right, but they were segregated, ie. ALL women were behind the men. Segregation does not necessarily mean there must be a visible barrier.


#2 - The prophet asked the women to leave first because not to get bumped or crushed on the way out since there was only one entrance.

Are you sure about that?


Again, men and women were together in the same place as evidenced by the hadith.

I wasn't denying or arguing against this.


So trying to make something haram ("mixing) that's not is counter productive.

What i was trying to establish is that segregation is indeed a part of Islam, in rebuttal to your statement that it had NO part in Islam.

[Sammer]

Also, there is segregation to an extent. For eg, at a lecture, yes men and women are present at the same venue.. but you will get women sitting behind the men. Same with the masjid, the women will be praying behind the men. So.. why are women behind the men and not in front?

There is clear references to the praying positions for men and women. And there is also an exception to the rule where it doesn't apply (Mecca). Interaction however for everyday life purposes is different since it's necesarry to trade, work, and generally exist among one another.

I guess every person will do what is comfortable for them. I do not chastise Muslims if they want to live a 'segregated' life. That's a personal choice. But I do when its imposed on others under the guise of Islam says this because it doesn't.

UnsurAlUmmah
Umm at-Tuflaan

I'm terribly sorry I did not express my thought well enough. When I say segregation, I was referring to general life, not in prayers or personal ibadah. There is wisdoms why men and women are 'segregated' in prayers which we know of.

I'm not pushing for same sex bathrooms!

[SuBMiSSioN]

Yes, it's necessary to trade, work etc etc etc.. but you do that in the right manner. Women dress according to what Allaah has revealed, and men do the same. It's not about locking women up in their homes, or living a 'segregated life', or being anti-social, or whatever. It's about living by the laws of Allaah ta3aala, and that includes segregation when needed.

[Sammer]

Ok, can we continue this another time, it's like almost 3 am here! :D

[SuBMiSSioN]

Yes.. Here too.. But where you going? I'm only getting started lol

[Sammer]

May as well stay up for fajr!

[SuBMiSSioN]

yeah..only 2 hrs away.

Oh btw, I like this discussion too. There's no personal attacks thrown in anywhere. Makes the conversation so much more.. pleasant to read :thumbsup:

[Sammer]

Yeah, allhmdulilah, very cool :cool:

[Sammer]

*ech-o-o-o*:wave:

:ha:

:weirdo:

[Tay_]

Interesting, so girls danced at the girls night only?

What did all do beside listening to Anasheed?

Teach us something new :)

Yeah girls danced at the girls night only. Otherwise people ate, there were speeches and a martial arts/street fighting combat display

[Tay_]

Another question, where did the prophet Muhammad :saw: face when he to used give out talks where men and women attended?

Subhana Allaah...:)

from sunnipath.com

In conclusion, when you find yourself in a situation with women, Muslim or otherwise, simply be modest and respectful. There is no problem with talking to a member of the opposite sex or working with that person when there is a need. As long as we adhere to these boundaries, inshallah everything should be fine. There is no need to be uncomfortable when there are women around. I have seen some Muslim brothers who when they sight a woman or hear her voice, immediately start scowling or act very tense. This is unnecessary. I have also seen Muslim brothers who feel very comfortable chatting with non-Muslim women, but as soon as a Muslim woman comes around, they ignore her and won't even give salaams. This too is unnecessary and looks very strange to the non-Muslim observers.

What's important to remember here is the example of our Prophet, peace be upon him. He was modest, respectful, and kind to everyone. He also interacted with women when there was a need to do so. He is the best example for us.

I hope this is helpful to you.

And Allah alone gives success. And Allah knows best.

Umm Salah (Zaynab Ansari)

[*F@ttY*]

This topic is just going back to where it started...

[aussiemu]

I think the topic is finished now. Everyone has had their say. I'll lock it now.