Polyandry Vs Polygamy

[Rachael]

Okay guys, you know how I have this issue with women being treated unequally to men and I was asked where in the Quran this is obvious.

We discussed the rights of a woman to marry outside of Islam and how it is prohibited yet it is okay for a man to do so, and I was informed so as to protect the woman.

Now reading the IslamBasics link http://islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=154&chapter=1#q1 that I had been given some days ago, I came across another topic that of course, most non-muslims would ask a lot of questions about so this is probably not surprising that I am.

When reading the explainations as to why Men can have up to 4 wives however women are only allowed one husband I had to wonder, how are the reasons for this justified?


POLYANDRY

Question:

If a man is allowed to have more than one wife, then why does Islam prohibit a woman from having more than one husband?

Answer:

A lot of people, including some Muslims, question the logic of allowing Muslim men to have more than one spouse while denying the same ‘right’ to women.

Let me first state emphatically, that the foundation of an Islamic society is justice and equity. Allah has created men and women as equal, but with different capabilities and different responsibilities. Men and women are different, physiologically and psychologically. Their roles and responsibilities are different. Men and women are equal in Islam, but not identical.

Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verses 22 to 24 gives the list of women with who you can not marry and it is further mentions in Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verse 24 "Also (prohibited are) women already married"

The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam:


1. If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.

They stated the point I would make in this one, with regards to genetic testing and therefore the first reason is no longer a reason


2. Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.

This is not true, not all women are this way at all, many women enjoy having different partners. Women are only this way, because we are told that we should be this way or we are bad women, not necessarily because we want to be. There are heaps of women out there not satisfied with their sexual life with thier husbands and probably fantasise about other men. So this reason is not true either.


3. Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.

How can this be true, when a man can only ejaculate once a night practically, and needs to rest. He is less able to perform his duties as husband, because a woman can have relations with 4 husbands a wife and not be limited due to physical reasons such as a man is. If a woman can have sex with 4 husbands every night for 3 weeks out of the month. That is more 'performance of duties' because all her husbands have had relations each night, whereas a man can only 'perform his duties' with one wife per night..


4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.

If all husbands are faithful to the marriage, this is just not true. Sexual disease can only be contracted from someone that has the disease. If all her husbands are having sex with only her, than they cannot contract disease, because there is no disease to contract. That is just not true.


The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.

then i just love this bit, "blame allah girls!"



Please tell me these are not the only reason, women once again are given less freedom sexually and in marriage choices than men in Islam.

I am not trying to start arguements and if i am annoying anyone with my questions just let me know, and i will stop.

But I do to have these rules, which I only see as contradictions, explained to me.

If the only reason other than the above is because its in the Quran, and thats Gods word and that is why. Then I will not ask again. As I understand you all on that Gods word statement now. we have discussed that already in detail. But I would just like to know why God would be so unbalanced with the sexes.

[Musa]

The exact reason and the only reason is this - Allah has allowed it. Same reason its allowed in the Bible.
Everything else is just opinions on its status.

[your sister]

The exact reason and the only reason is this - Allah has allowed it. Same reason its allowed in the Bible.
Everything else is just opinions on its status.

i think it was brother dijma who said ALLAH will not allow something that is harmful to mankind and i had never thought bout it in that way , ALLAH knows best.

[your sister]

http://lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=Stream2&file=index&lid=260

http://lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=Stream2&file=index&lid=263

this lecture is by brother siraj wahaj i watched bit of it very informative for its part 2 parts

[Umm Jannah]

Aphrodite, if you fell pregnant from hubby #1, should hubby #2 have to wait for 9 months? sooo...His baby can come out soon? OMG, I am thinking of the period when breast feeding :eek: :rolleyes:

Come on woman!! Allaah Knows our needs before He created us...:smack:

Could a woman love 2 men in the same time, no dont say yes, I will call the closest Psychologist for you :brow: How about you go ask your husband if you practice Polyandry, what and how you 2 want to plan your life?

Satisfaction woman, one is enough, learn to be satisfied and you'd find peace ;)

[Shadower]

Adds polyandry to his vocab.

[your sister]

lol@shadower......


They stated the point I would make in this one, with regards to genetic testing and therefore the first reason is no longer a reason
and who has access to their own lab, and i doubt most people have the funding . ALLAH made things easy alhamdulillah


How can this be true, when a man can only ejaculate once a night practically, and needs to rest
says who?

If all husbands are faithful to the marriage, this is just not true. Sexual disease can only be contracted from someone that has the disease. If all her husbands are having sex with only her, than they cannot contract disease, because there is no disease to contract. That is just not true
ok so u sorted out the sexual disease now u gona stop them beating the @#@# out of each other :boxing: , i just cant even imagine ANY men going for that but there are many cases of polygamy even amongst non muslims:thumbsup:

This is not true, not all women are this way at all, many women enjoy having different partners. Women are only this way, because we are told that we should be this way or we are bad women, not necessarily because we want to be. There are heaps of women out there not satisfied with their sexual life with thier husbands and probably fantasise about other men. So this reason is not true either.
speak for urself woman!! ur on ur own on this one aphro:rolleyes:


then i just love this bit, "blame allah girls!"

dont u mean praise ALLAH the most gracious most merciful for making it easy on us.:) .............

all and all i see how they have tried to highlight some of the POSSIBLE wisdom behind it but like the bro said thats NOT the reason why ALLAH allowed it, and sounds reasonable but ur arguments sound way out there man and so not realistic..........soorry aphro:D

[Nick_Mick_Yok]

The exact reason and the only reason is this - Allah has allowed it. Same reason its allowed in the Bible.
Everything else is just opinions on its status.
Indeed.

[Khaled]

This is why -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CzNSOgkggs

[Umm Jannah]

That would sound EXTREMELY disgusting but I'd only say it for the sake of Allaah only.

Aphrodite, in Islam, no woman should marry another men straight after her husband passes a way (Yes after 4 months and 10 days), for many reasons, and what I care to highlight for you is.

2 different sperm inside one womb makes a fetal disease eg: AIDS and others.





You can Fool us but not Allaah!






(I Seek refuge from such act)

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

Aphrodite, in Islam, no woman should marry another men straight after her husband passes a way (Yes after 3 months and 10 days), for many reasons, and what I care to highlight for you is.

It's actually 4 months and 10 days sis.

[Umm Jannah]

Jazaakillaahu Khayran, I am obviously not a widowed walhamdulilaah :o

[Rubaiyat]

If the only reason other than the above is because its in the Quran, and thats Gods word and that is why. Then I will not ask again. As I understand you all on that Gods word statement now. we have discussed that already in detail. But I would just like to know why God would be so unbalanced with the sexes.

First you have to undrestand how this rule of polygamy came into Islam. From memory, it was after the battle of Uhud (someone please correct me if I get the name wrong), when Muslims lost a significant number of soilders and that left a rather large number of widows. This also shifted and male to female ratio within the Muslim population. To cater for these women, this instruction of polygamy came in.

It is here to provide the women their legal rights as wife (which I'm sure you know that every Muslim woman enjoy) that they will not receive living as a mistress.

Secondly, lets look at the world population and keep in mind that Islamic solutions are universal solutions.

According to the CIA factbook (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html#People) at birth the male to female ratio is 1.06. However as male infant mortality rate is higher [1 (http://paa2007.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=71947), 2 (http://www.latinostories.com/Latin_America_Resources/Latin_American_Infant_Mortality_Rates.htm)], this balances out in the adult population. If look at this chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sex_ratio_total_population_per_country_smoot h.png) the overall male to femalte ratio is 1.01. This means around 60 million more males. However, you will notice that the only countries where you have more male than female are Middle eastern countries, India and China.

Apart from these regions, in rest of the world, either there are equal or more females. The shift in the Middle east is due to large labour migrants from the subcontinent and Africa. So that is effected due to migration and not natural cause. As for India and China the situation is a direct effect of female infanticide. According to these reports [1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide), 2 (http://wo-magazine.com/blog/2006/12/15/unicef-report-7000-fewer-girls-born-in-india-every-day/)], everyday 7000 less females are born in India alone because of this practice and the country undergoes around 30 million (according to UNICEF) infenticides a year. This is a country with 1/6th of world population. Similar story of China is well known.

The natural trend clearly shows that under normal circumstances, there will be more females than males. It will not be a huge difference, but still a significant portion. A 0.01% difference in ratio means around 60 million and it's a lot.

Now lets apply the universality of Islam all over. If everyone in this world was Muslim and there was no female infenticide, how do you solve the problem where millions of women will never get a life partner if every men were stricly forbidden to have more than one wife? Add to this equation the fall out of wars where in all of human history, man has been the biggest casualties.

So this is not about giving females a sore end of the deal, but a practical solution to a universal problem.

I hope this clears it for you.

[mhussain]

Satisfaction woman, one is enough, learn to be satisfied and you'd find peace ;)

Technically the same should apply to men

[Rachael]

Aphrodite, if you fell pregnant from hubby #1, should hubby #2 have to wait for 9 months? sooo...His baby can come out soon? OMG, I am thinking of the period when breast feeding :eek: :rolleyes:

Come on woman!! Allaah Knows our needs before He created us...:smack:

Could a woman love 2 men in the same time, no dont say yes, I will call the closest Psychologist for you :brow: How about you go ask your husband if you practice Polyandry, what and how you 2 want to plan your life?

Satisfaction woman, one is enough, learn to be satisfied and you'd find peace ;)


Hey I have to congratulate you on a very good reason with regards to the pregnancy, well done! LOL, however, ahem, you can actually have sex when you are pregnant it wont hurt the baby :rolleyes:, but you are right, you are less likely in the last few months to feel like doing 5 hubbys lol. you penetrated the rock wall of rachaeldom lmao.

Then you better call the psychiatrist then hon, cause I dont think love is necessarily limited. are women not human? If you think a woman cannot love two men, then you have to admit that a man cannot love two women. why would they be able to achieve this and a woman be considered in need of a doctor if she could? bit of a strange thought.

Please understand I do not want another husband LMAO. This is a rhetorical question, not something I desire. And no my husband would not like it, nor would i like him having another wife.

My opposition to this law is its injustice and the law generalising about women and liberating men.

[Rachael]

and who has access to their own lab, and i doubt most people have the funding . ALLAH made things easy alhamdulillah

you can actually buy these tests on line quite affordable.

says who?

ummm obviously your hubby aint 50 yet is he :rolleyes:

ok so u sorted out the sexual disease now u gona stop them beating the @#@# out of each other :boxing: , i just cant even imagine ANY men going for that but there are many cases of polygamy even amongst non muslims:thumbsup:

So once again women have more rules put on them, because men cant control themselves?


speak for urself woman!! ur on ur own on this one aphro:rolleyes:

OMG woman i am not talking about myself, however I have heard other women speaking about it :rolleyes: However in my first marriage, my partner was not very interested in relations as much as I was. That was a big detriment to the marriage. so yes some women have more sex drive than their male partner.



dont u mean praise ALLAH the most gracious most merciful for making it easy on us.:) .............

why generalise about all women? some would consider it easier others would consider it an injustice.

[Rachael]

This is why -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CzNSOgkggs

My goodness 15 mins into the programme and he still hadnt explained the topic :shake: i am not going to watch 58 mins of that. its way too irrelevent so far.

[Rachael]

2 different sperm inside one womb makes a fetal disease eg: AIDS and others.

THAT is complete rubbish! it only creates aids if one party is infected!

1 sperm in 4 different wombs can ALSO can cause fetal disease.
If one partner is infected.

[Ibn Farooq]

Then you better call the psychiatrist then hon, cause I dont think love is necessarily limited. are women not human? If you think a woman cannot love two men, then you have to admit that a man cannot love two women. why would they be able to achieve this and a woman be considered in need of a doctor if she could? bit of a strange thought.

My opposition to this law is its injustice and the law generalising about women and liberating men.

A man can only have more than one wife only if he can treat them equally in worldly aspects. If he can't it is best advised to have one wife. Plus, Allah, has created us and the creator knows more about us, what is best for us and what is not than we do. I may not be able explain the wisdom behind this but I will disagree with your statement saying that this law is unjust. For example, if the wife is unable to give birth to a child, and if the couple do not want to adopt (I dont know the Islamic rulings on adoption), a man can marry again, have a second wife have a kid, all this while, the first wife still has all her rights. A man has to treat all his wives equally.

[Imaan81]

Hey I have to congratulate you on a very good reason with regards to the pregnancy, well done! LOL, however, ahem, you can actually have sex when you are pregnant it wont hurt the baby :rolleyes:, but you are right, you are less likely in the last few months to feel like doing 5 hubbys lol. you penetrated the rock wall of rachaeldom lmao.

Then you better call the psychiatrist then hon, cause I dont think love is necessarily limited. are women not human? If you think a woman cannot love two men, then you have to admit that a man cannot love two women. why would they be able to achieve this and a woman be considered in need of a doctor if she could? bit of a strange thought.

Please understand I do not want another husband LMAO. This is a rhetorical question, not something I desire. And no my husband would not like it, nor would i like him having another wife.

My opposition to this law is its injustice and the law generalising about women and liberating men.

In regards to your above post, a woman cannot have more than one husband because how would you know which husband is the one that made you pregnant? Hubby 1, 2, 3 or 4? You would have to wait 9 months in order to be able to do a DNA test to find out whos it is.

Secondly, the husband is not obliged to love all wives equally. What he is obliged to do is provide for all of them equally i.e you buy one wife a house, well, then you gotta buy the second one a house too. You buy one a gift, then you gotta buy the second one too. You feed one, you gotta feed the other.

Allah swt does not incourage polygamy for a man if the man fears thar he will not be able to provide equally to all wives.

Polygamy is not just about fulfilling a mans desires. It is a huge responsibility to the effect that if he is not equal to all wives, on judgement day, half of him will be in hell (please correct me anyone if this is wrong).

Polygammy is about helping people, for example, look at so many woman out there who are mid age and raising kids on there own. If they cant find a man to help them and marry them in this situation, why should they live the rest of their life all alone? But, if there is a man who feels that he can take care of her, then why not let him marry her and take responisbility for her?

[Rachael]

First you have to undrestand how this rule of polygamy came into Islam. From memory, it was after the battle of Uhud (someone please correct me if I get the name wrong), when Muslims lost a significant number of soilders and that left a rather large number of widows. This also shifted and male to female ratio within the Muslim population. To cater for these women, this instruction of polygamy came in.

It is here to provide the women their legal rights as wife (which I'm sure you know that every Muslim woman enjoy) that they will not receive living as a mistress.

Secondly, lets look at the world population and keep in mind that Islamic solutions are universal solutions.

According to the CIA factbook (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html#People) at birth the male to female ratio is 1.06. However as male infant mortality rate is higher [1 (http://paa2007.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=71947), 2 (http://www.latinostories.com/Latin_America_Resources/Latin_American_Infant_Mortality_Rates.htm)], this balances out in the adult population. If look at this chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sex_ratio_total_population_per_country_smoot h.png) the overall male to femalte ratio is 1.01. This means around 60 million more males. However, you will notice that the only countries where you have more male than female are Middle eastern countries, India and China.

Apart from these regions, in rest of the world, either there are equal or more females. The shift in the Middle east is due to large labour migrants from the subcontinent and Africa. So that is effected due to migration and not natural cause. As for India and China the situation is a direct effect of female infanticide. According to these reports [1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide), 2 (http://wo-magazine.com/blog/2006/12/15/unicef-report-7000-fewer-girls-born-in-india-every-day/)], everyday 7000 less females are born in India alone because of this practice and the country undergoes around 30 million (according to UNICEF) infenticides a year. This is a country with 1/6th of world population. Similar story of China is well known.

The natural trend clearly shows that under normal circumstances, there will be more females than males. It will not be a huge difference, but still a significant portion. A 0.01% difference in ratio means around 60 million and it's a lot.

Now lets apply the universality of Islam all over. If everyone in this world was Muslim and there was no female infenticide, how do you solve the problem where millions of women will never get a life partner if every men were stricly forbidden to have more than one wife? Add to this equation the fall out of wars where in all of human history, man has been the biggest casualties.

So this is not about giving females a sore end of the deal, but a practical solution to a universal problem.

I hope this clears it for you.


yes i agree its a practical and good solution. However making it a law that it is only okay for men and is forbidden for women makes it loose credibility. If it was a true and caring solution, it would have been a recommendation that men can marry more than one woman, however it would not have placed a rule on women that they could not. It explains polygamy, but doesnt explain outlawing Polyandry

[Rachael]

A man can only have more than one wife only if he can treat them equally in worldly aspects. If he can't it is best advised to have one wife. Plus, Allah, has created us and the creator knows more about us, what is best for us and what is not than we do. I may not be able explain the wisdom behind this but I will disagree with your statement saying that this law is unjust. For example, if the wife is unable to give birth to a child, and if the couple do not want to adopt (I dont know the Islamic rulings on adoption), a man can marry again, have a second wife have a kid, all this while, the first wife still has all her rights. A man has to treat all his wives equally.


What if the man is infertile? and the woman wants a child? does she have to divorce him, although she loves him? Why cannot she have another husband that CAN give her children.

[Rubaiyat]

My opposition to this law is its injustice and the law generalising about women and liberating men.

How about addressing the point of gender ratio that I gave above before branding the ruling as sexist? How do you solve that problem?

[Rubaiyat]

yes i agree its a practical and good solution. However making it a law that it is only okay for men and is forbidden for women makes it loose credibility. If it was a true and caring solution, it would have been a recommendation that men can marry more than one woman, however it would not have placed a rule on women that they could not. It explains polygamy, but doesnt explain outlawing Polyandry

Show me one scenario where polyandry has one practical application in solving a problem, not satisfying a desire. I have given you a perfect scenario where polygamy has been permitted to solve a practical problem that we face today.

The law LIMITS the number to 4 so one can't go to having as many as he wants.

[Rubaiyat]

What if the man is infertile? and the woman wants a child? does she have to divorce him, although she loves him? Why cannot she have another husband that CAN give her children.

Foster parenting option is always there. Also life is a gift of God to begin with. It's futile to fight that.

Edit: One more thing I'll add to the above. This ruling is to cater for a practical need, not desires. Don't confuse between the two. You have agreed with this in respect of need to solve a practical problem. So don't drag in issues with desire as is not meant to cater for that.

[Imaan81]

Aphrodite,

Just a point to ponder on:- dont look at the one or two points in Islam that you dont like in order to convince yourself that Islam is not right.

Look at the basic tenants of faith that we muslims are obliged to believe in, read the Quran, read and learn about prophet Muhammad and then make your judgement.

Yes, polygammy may seem sexist and opressive to woman, but Islam is so complex and its amazing at the wisdom behind Allahs rules.

Also, polygamy is not the end all and be all in our religion. Not every single man has more than one wife, heck, many men cant even handle one wife let alone considering to have a second. And yes, it is hard for many muslim women in this situation to accept their husband to marry a second, but it comes down to the intentions of the husband and why he wants to marry another.

Please, for your own sake, read the Quran and learn about the life of the prophet. Then you will be in a better position to decide if Islam is right or wrong for you.

[Rachael]

How about addressing the point of gender ratio that I gave above before branding the ruling as sexist? How do you solve that problem?

I thought I did address it. I dont have a problem with polygamy as a solution to the ratio problem. i have a problem with the law against Polyandry. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Rachael]

Show me one scenario where polyandry has one practical application in solving a problem, not satisfying a desire. I have given you a perfect scenario where polygamy has been permitted to solve a practical problem that we face today.

The law LIMITS the number to 4 so one can't go to having as many as he wants.

India has more men than women. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India

Urban: Age structure:
0–14 years: 30.8%(male 173,478,760/female 163,852,827)
15–64 years: 64.3% (male 363,876,219/female 340,181,764)
65 years and over: 4.9% (male 27,258,020/female 26,704,405) (2006 est.)

[Rachael]

Foster parenting option is always there. Also life is a gift of God to begin with. It's futile to fight that.

Edit: One more thing I'll add to the above. This ruling is to cater for a practical need, not desires. Don't confuse between the two. You have agreed with this in respect of need to solve a practical problem. So don't drag in issues with desire as is not ment to cater for that.

then if you are going to use the arguement of fostering for this situation, then the reverse arguement cannot be used. that a man with an infertile wife should take another to give him children.

[Rachael]

Aphrodite,

Just a point to ponder on:- dont look at the one or two points in Islam that you dont like in order to convince yourself that Islam is not right.

Look at the basic tenants of faith that we muslims are obliged to believe in, read the Quran, read and learn about prophet Muhammad and then make your judgement.

Yes, polygammy may seem sexist and opressive to woman, but Islam is so complex and its amazing at the wisdom behind Allahs rules.

Also, polygamy is not the end all and be all in our religion. Not every single man has more than one wife, heck, many men cant even handle one wife let alone considering to have a second. And yes, it is hard for many muslim women in this situation to accept their husband to marry a second, but it comes down to the intentions of the husband and why he wants to marry another.

Please, for your own sake, read the Quran and learn about the life of the prophet. Then you will be in a better position to decide if Islam is right or wrong for you.


Then you see, I guess I cant commit to something I cannot completely believe in. It cant have some truths and some things that are questionable. if it is truely the word of god there would be no question. IT would be truth.

[Imaan81]

I thought I did address it. I dont have a problem with polygamy as a solution to the ratio problem. i have a problem with the law against Polyandry. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Allah with all his wisdom knows that closer to the end of the world there will be more women then men, that is why he has allowed polygamy and not polyandry.

[Imaan81]

Then you see, I guess I cant commit to something I cannot completely believe in. It cant have some truths and some things that are questionable. if it is truely the word of god there would be no question. IT would be truth.

That is why im suggesting to you to learn the basics of islam before you try and understand its rulings.

Eg. a new born baby doesnt automatically start running as soon as it is born. It first learns how to balance its weight, then how to crawl, then walk, and then run as it gets older.

Same with anyone learning a new thing. You gotta learn the basics, not just jump straight away into the deep end.

[Imaan81]

Some interesting points about polygamy from www.islamqa.com. Last paragraph talks about polyandry.

We will present to you the ruling on plural marriage in Islam, and then the wisdom and noble purposes behind it.

1 – The ruling on plural marriage in Islam:

The shar’i text which permits plural marriage is:

Allaah says in His Holy Book (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”

[al-Nisa’ 4:3]

This is a Qur’aanic text which shows that plural marriage is allowed. According to Islamic sharee’ah, a man is permitted to marry one, two, three or four wives, in the sense that he may have this number of wives at one time. It is not permissible for him to have more than four. This was stated by the mufassireen (commentators on the Qur’aan) and fuqaha’ (jurists), and there is consensus among the Muslims on this point, with no differing opinions.

It should be noted that there are conditions attached to plural marriage:

1 – Justice or fairness.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one”

[al-Nisa’ 4:3]

This aayah is indicates that just treatment is a condition for plural marriage to be permitted. If a man is afraid that he will not be able to treat his wives justly if he marries more than one, then it is forbidden for him to marry more than one. What is meant by the justice that is required in order for a man to be permitted to have more than one wife is that he should treat his wives equally in terms of spending, clothing, spending the night with them and other material things that are under his control.

With regard to justice or fairness in terms of love, he is not held accountable for that, and that is not required of him because he has no control over that. This is what is meant by the verse,

“You will never be able to do perfect justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire”

[al-Nisa’ 4:129 – interpretation of the meaning].

2 – The ability to spend on one’s wives:

The evidence for this condition is the verse:

“And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allaah enriches them of His Bounty”

[al-Noor 24:33 – interpretation of the meaning]

In this verse Allaah commands those who are able to get married but cannot find the financial means, to remain chaste. One such example is not having enough money to pay the mahr (dowry) and not being able to spend on one’s wife. (al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah, part 6, p. 286).

2 – The wisdom behind permitting plural marriage

1 – Plural marriage helps to increase the numbers of the ummah (nation, Muslim community). It is known that the numbers can only be increased through marriage, and the number of offspring gained through plural marriage will be greater than that achieved through marriage to one wife.

Wise people know that increasing the number of offspring will strengthen the ummah and increase the number of workers in it, which will raise its economic standard – if the leaders run the affairs of state well and make use of its resources in a proper manner. Ignore the claims of those who say that increasing the numbers of human beings poses a danger to the earth’s resources which are insufficient, for Allaah the Most Wise Who has prescribed plural marriage has guaranteed to provide provision for His slaves and has created on earth what is more than sufficient for them. Whatever shortfall exists is due to the injustice of administrations, governments and individuals, and due to bad management. Look at China, for example, the greatest nation on earth as far as number of inhabitants is concerned, and it is regarded as one of the strongest nations in the world, and other nations would think twice before upsetting China; it is also one of the great industrialized nations. Who would dare think of attacking China, I wonder? And why?

2 – Statistics show that the number of women is greater than the number of men; if each man were to marry just one woman, this would mean that some women would be left without a husband, which would have a harmful effect on her and on society:

The harmful effect is that she would never find a husband to take care of her interests, to give her a place to live, to spend on her, to protect her from haraam desires, and to give her children to bring her joy. This may lead to deviance and going astray, except for those on whom Allaah has mercy.

With regard to the harmful effects on society, it is well known that this woman who is left without a husband may deviate from the straight path and follow the ways of promiscuity, so she may fall into the swamp of adultery and prostitution – may Allaah keep us safe and sound – which leads to the spread of immorality and the emergence of fatal diseases such as AIDS and other contagious diseases for which there is no cure. It also leads to family breakdown and the birth of children whose identity is unknown, and who do not know who their fathers are.

Those children do not find anyone to show compassion towards them or any mature man to raise them properly. When they go out into the world and find out the truth, that they are illegitimate, that is reflected in their behaviour, and they become exposed to deviance and going astray. They may even bear grudges against society, and who knows? They may become the means of their country’s destruction, leaders of deviant gangs, as is the case in many nations in the world.

3 – Men are exposed to incidents that may end their lives, for they work in dangerous professions. They are the soldiers who fight in battle, and more men may die than women. This is one of the things that raise the percentage of husbandless women, and the only solution to this problem is plural marriage.

4 – There are some men who may have strong physical desires, for whom one wife is not enough. If the door is closed to such a man and he is told, you are not allowed more than one wife, this will cause great hardship to him, and his desire may find outlets in forbidden ways.

In addition to that, a woman menstruates each month, and when she gives birth, she bleeds for forty days (this post-partum bleeding is called nifaas in Arabic), at which time a man cannot have intercourse with his wife, because intercourse at the time of menstruation or nifaas is forbidden, and the harm that it causes has been proven medically. So plural marriage is permitted when one is able to be fair and just.

5 – Plural marriage does not exist only in the Islamic religion, rather it was known among the previous nations. Some of the Prophets were married to more than one woman. The Prophet of Allaah Sulaymaan (Solomon) had ninety wives. At the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), there were some men who became Muslims who had eight or five wives. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told them to keep four wives and to divorce the rest.

6 – A wife may be barren, or she may not meet her husband’s needs, or he may be unable to have intercourse with her because she is sick. A husband may long to have children, which is a legitimate desire, and he may want to have a sex life within marriage, which is something permissible, and the only way is to marry another wife. It is only fair for the wife to agree to remain his wife and to allow him to marry another.

7 – A woman may be one of the man’s relatives and have no one to look after her, and she is unmarried or a widow whose husband has died, and the man may think that the best thing to do for her is to include her in his household as a wife along with his first wife, so that he will both keep her chaste and spend on her. This is better for her than leaving her alone and being content only to spend on her.

8 – There are other shar’i interests that call for plural marriages, such as strengthening the bonds between families, or strengthening the bonds between a leader and some of his people or group, and he may think that one of the ways of achieving this aim is to become related to them through marriage, even if that is through plural marriage.

Objection:

Some people may object and say that plural marriage means having co-wives in one house, and that the disputes and enmity that may arise between co-wives will have an effect on the husband, children and others, and this is harmful and should be avoided, and the only way to prevent that is to ban plural marriage.

Response to the objection:

The response to that is that family arguments may occur even when there is only one wife, and they may not even happen when there is more than one wife, as we see in real life. Even if we assume that there may be more arguments than in a marriage to one wife, even if we accept that they may be harmful and bad, the harm is outweighed by the many good things in a plural marriage. Life is not entirely bad or entirely good, but what everyone hopes is that the good will outweigh the bad, and this principle is what applies in the permission for plural marriage.

Moreover, each wife has the right to her own, separate accommodation as prescribed in Islam. It is not permissible for the husband to force his wives to live together in one house.

Another objection:

If we allow men to have plural wives, why are women not allowed to have multiple husbands, why does a woman not have the right to marry more than one man?

Response to this objection:

There is no point in giving a woman the right to marry multiple husbands, rather that is beneath her dignity and she would not know the lineage of her children, because she is the one who bears the offspring, and it is not permissible for the offspring to be formed from the sperm of a number of men lest the lineage of the child be lost and no one will know who is responsible for bringing up the child; this will lead to breakdown of families, loss of ties between fathers and children, which is not permitted in Islam as it is not in the interests of the woman or of the child or of society as a whole.

Al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah, part 6, p. 290

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

[your sister]

brothers and sisters please correct me if im wrong..........

yo aphro......im not trying to argue with u just want u to help u understand.... this is an alternative given to men and woman by ALLAH subhanahu wa taala, u dont have to go out there and do it the brother and sister may feel its not for them for whatever reason and maybe in agreement and thats ok or they may agree its something that they would be happy to do and thats cool too.

As for ur arguments i still dont find them realistic soooooory :) i mean not everyone is as fortunate as us to have access to net and funding is different for everybody , i dont want to go into other arguments but for example.....
a sister in afganistan she is a widow her husband like most of the men in that country died in the "war on terror", so ratio more woman than men, she doesnt have access to education and her employment prospects are pfft, she finds herself begging on the street to support herself and her children. now a good brother comes along he is married and would like to marry again, he asks for her hand in marriage, offers her a home, food , clothing and shelter for both her and her children, her intimate needs are taken care of in a respected legal contract "marriage" now this system has become a mercy for her in her life , but once again ALLAH knows best why he allowed it
another thing is, u may not like something and it maybe good and very real and beneficial for alot of people , sometimes we might not like something but we must accept that it maybe be possible and maybe there is alot of truth in it even if we dont like it u cannot just dissprove it cause u personally dont like the idea , get me :) i dono if im wording it correctly just a tad bit tired yallah peace

ps. on a side note i do agree with u on the argument that some woman are not "satisfied" ALLAH knows best but as far as i know in islam u can go to the court and seek a divorce for that reason alone even if the bro is a good practicing, financially supportive ect. and its not looked down upon the matter is taken seriously in islam, Alhamdulillah part of ALLAHS mercy, islam liberated and still liberates woman till this day praise be to ALLAH most kind most merciful :)

[Rubaiyat]

India has more men than women. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India

Urban: Age structure:
0–14 years: 30.8%(male 173,478,760/female 163,852,827)
15–64 years: 64.3% (male 363,876,219/female 340,181,764)
65 years and over: 4.9% (male 27,258,020/female 26,704,405) (2006 est.)

Yes it does and I mentioned that in my post as well. And I also mentioned the reason for this. Female infanticide that kills 30 million per year (see references in my earlier post). Stop this evil and that place will follow the natural trend of rest of the world as well.

[Rubaiyat]

then if you are going to use the arguement of fostering for this situation, then the reverse arguement cannot be used. that a man with an infertile wife should take another to give him children.

I did not use that argument, did I? I just mentioned a possible alternative. More over this an issue of desire and I have mentioned before, desire is not the reason why polygamy is permitted in Islam.

Lets get back to the basics, can we please? You absolutely agreed with the reason and practicality of this ruling and found it good. So why there is a problem? I asked you to keep the desire factor aside and show me one practical application of polyandry universally. Islam is a universal religion.

[Rachael]

having more males in the house offers more security both economically and physically.

[Rubaiyat]

having more males in the house offers more security both economically and physically.

So you admit male physical supiriority? I'll keep this in mind for future reference :)

Anyway, to address your issue: Live in a joint family*. Also how many male members are required to secure a home? Islamic society first and foremost works towards providing a secure social network where one can sleep peacefully without worrying about their homes being invaded.

Hardly a reason to go for polyandry. The problem that polygamy solves, can you provide any other better solution? You have admitted polygamy to be a good solution, so the point is proven.

*Joint family: A number of families live under the same roof and share all resources. It is a common practise in the Indian Sub-continent where a number of brothers live with their parents in the same big house.

[Abu Dharr]

It's polyandry v polygyny, not polyandry v polygamy.

[Amin]

Allah says: And the male is not like the female. [Qur’an 3:36]

An expert in socio-biology, Edward O. Wilson, of Harvard University, said that human females tend to be higher than males in empathy, verbal skills, social skills and security-seeking, among other things, while men tend to be higher in independence, dominance, spatial and mathematical skills, rank-related aggression, and other characteristics.

Independence and Dominance... You simply cannot have multiple dominant figures in the same house. The only way this would be possible is for a man to go against his nature and begin to immitate women.

Why don't we have multiple prime ministers? A ship can only have one captain.

Regardless whether one believes that God created men and women differently, or whether men evolved differently to women over thousands of years, the reality is that right down to the cellular level, males and females are different. Each cell in a woman's body bears the mark of her gender. It would be a foolish person to ignore these differences.

[tofah]

Question:
I have some questions about Islam, could you explain them for me? I think that Islam allows a man to marry more than one wife if he is able to take care of them in all in all aspects. Does Islam allow a woman to have more than one husband? Why not?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

With regard to why Islam does not allow a woman to marry more than one man, the imams (may Allaah have mercy on them) have explained the wisdom of the Lord behind that. For example, Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

That is the wisdom of the Lord and His kindness and mercy towards His slaves and His taking care of their affairs. Exalted be He far above anything other than that. His laws are above suggesting anything other than that. If it were permitted for a woman to have two husbands or more, the world would be corrupted, lineages would be lost, the husbands would kill one another, there would be great misery and tribulation, and there would be continuous trouble.

How could a woman be in a good position if she were shared by a number of men who were fighting all the time? How could the men who share her be in a good situation?

The fact that sharee’ah brings the teachings it does is one of the greatest signs of the wisdom of the Lawgiver and His mercy and care.

If it is said, how come men are taken care of and given free rein to satisfy their desires and move from one wife to another according to their desires and needs, when a woman’s sex drive is the same as a man’s?

The answer is that because women are usually hidden behind veils and inside their houses, and women tend to be more even-tempered than men, and less active than men, and men have been given more physical strength and energy which makes men’s desires greater than woman’s and men are affected by these desires more than women, a man is allowed to marry more partners than a woman is. This is one of the things that have been given exclusively to men and not to women, one of the things in which they have been given something more than women, just as they are also favoured over women in that only men can be Messengers, Prophets, caliphs, kings, governors and judges, and go out for jihad, etc., and men have been made qawwaamoon (protectors and maintainers) of women, taking care of them, working to provide them with the means of living, exposing themselves to danger, travelling about in the land and exposing themselves to all sorts of trials in order to take care of their wives.

The Lord is Ever-Appreciative and Forbearing, so He appreciates the men's efforts and has rewarded them by giving them something that He has not given to the women.

If you compare the exhaustive efforts and hard work that men do for the sake of woman with the jealousy that women suffer, you will find that the men's share of effort and exhaustion is greater than the women’s share of having to put up with jealousy.

This is the perfect justice, wisdom and mercy of Allaah, may He be praised as He deserves.

Islam Q&A

[مروة]

I think wat it boils down to is whether a person in fact believes in Allah..

If a person is a believer they will undoubtedly follow the commands of God without a question.. However, if a person questions these commands and does not believe in Allah then i guess these rules would not be aplicable to them as they are no longer muslim..

I hope that wasnt too confusing

[tofah]

Question: In Islam, why can a man can get married to two, three or four women, while a woman cannot get married to more than one man?

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Qâsim

There are many reasons why a woman should not be allowed to have more than one husband, even though a man could be allowed to have more than one wife.

First: Polygamy was not innovated by Islam. It was known in Judaism and other religions. Many of the Prophets (peace be upon them) were polygamous, such as Abraham and Sulayman, as mentioned in the Torah.

Second: With respect to polygamy, women cannot be compared with men, since comparison implies similarity with regard to the matter in question, which is not the case here. There are major differences between men and women:

· Women have menstrual cycles for quite a long period of their lives, while men do not.

· Fertility for men usually lasts longer than it does for women. Normally, women stop being fertile before 50, while most men continue to be fertile for a while longer.

·Women go through pregnancy, delivery, and post-natal bleeding while men do not.

· Men can sire children several times in one year with multiple partners while women cannot do so. No matter how many partners she has, she can only carry the child of one at a time.

Women have more affection than men and in most cases cannot behave unemotionally. The strong and concentrated affection women have does not allow them to cope in a relationship with many men and at the same time. Her nature prevents her from satisfying two men at one time.

If two men should approach one woman, it would cause cause confusion in genealogical relations.

Men are the ones commanded in Islam to protect and maintain women. They are obligated to spend on the family while women are not.

For one woman to have more than one husband, there are many disadvantages. It is practically impossible for it to work. But more than one woman for one man is lawful in Islam for the following reasons:

1. Polygamy preserves the stability of families, for example if the first wife is barren or afflicted by some illness, polygamy will offer her a chance that can save her from divorce or living alone.

2. The nature of a man makes polygamy something of dire necessity, for their sexual desires can often not be fulfilled by one woman who goes through menses, pregnancy, post-natal bleeding, and sickness, all of which are barriers to sex, or due to the frequent need of men to travel. Polygamy is far better than adultery which is widespread in the West. Polygamy is also better than divorce.

3. Polygamy benefits women. The second wife accepts it for her benefit to save her from staying alone; taking into account that she was not forced into it.

4. It is the best solution to save women from being lonely. Women live longer than men, they are more numerous than men, and in many cases men are facing danger and death more than women.

5. Islam has set conditions and controls that secure the woman’s rights. A man cannot have more than four wives. He has to treat all of his wives justly in living expenses, the time he spends with them, and in all matters under his power. Anyone incapable of being just will not be allowed to engage in polygamy. Allah says: “But if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one.”

We as Muslims believe that what Allah has made lawful is full of wisdom and justice and has been prescribed for the benefit of all mankind, whether we know the reasons for it or not. We should keep in mind that Allah did not even make it obligatory for us to marry in the first place. He encourages people to get married and allows polygamy for people who are capable of being just.

May Allah guide us all.


www.islamtoday.com

[your sister]

subhanALLAH what brother amin said is so true never thought bout it in that way either thats science u cant ignore it, well hubby will be very happy im getting quite an education in aussie muslim forum especially on one of his many favourite topics lol

[Rachael]

So you admit male physical supiriority? I'll keep this in mind for future reference :)

Anyway, to address your issue: Live in a joint family*. Also how many male members are required to secure a home? Islamic society first and foremost works towards providing a secure social network where one can sleep peacefully without worrying about their homes being invaded.

Hardly a reason to go for polyandry. The problem that polygamy solves, can you provide any other better solution? You have admitted polygamy to be a good solution, so the point is proven.

*Joint family: A number of families live under the same roof and share all resources. It is a common practise in the Indian Sub-continent where a number of brothers live with their parents in the same big house.

living in a joint family is not as beneficial because you spend twice as much on food, housing (need a large house), transport, electricity, water, EVERYTHING. but one extra husband does not take much from the economics of the house. he adds much more than would use. To share with another family would only create the same financial hardships and cause more stress. Not a solution.

Also why wriggle out of my very clear and basic response. You asked for One good practical reason and I gave you one. Now you just are trying to discredit it.

[Rachael]

Allah says: And the male is not like the female. [Qur’an 3:36]

An expert in socio-biology, Edward O. Wilson, of Harvard University, said that human females tend to be higher than males in empathy, verbal skills, social skills and security-seeking, among other things, while men tend to be higher in independence, dominance, spatial and mathematical skills, rank-related aggression, and other characteristics.

Independence and Dominance... You simply cannot have multiple dominant figures in the same house. The only way this would be possible is for a man to go against his nature and begin to immitate women.

Why don't we have multiple prime ministers? A ship can only have one captain.

Regardless whether one believes that God created men and women differently, or whether men evolved differently to women over thousands of years, the reality is that right down to the cellular level, males and females are different. Each cell in a woman's body bears the mark of her gender. It would be a foolish person to ignore these differences.


Yes I know we are different, that does not mean that we cannot have the same rights. If islam was to say, Polygamy is recommended and Polyandry is not recommended I wouldnt have the issue.

However Islam Aspires to make Polygamy out to be something where men are doing all these unloved, widowed, divorced women a favour and Polyandry out to be something disgraceful and unnatural.

Physical dominance doesnt mean that a man deserves to dominate women. It means he can go run and hunt and spear big Mammoths! That is why they were made superior, so as they can physically hunt and protect.

You guys were not made smarter! In this society we dont need big strong men as much anymore to go hunt for us, in fact women are expected to do the hunting - which is now a trip to the supermarket. So you guys have even gotten out of your natural responsibility of having to supply the food.

Women are dominant emotionally, we are dominant in communicating and we are dominant in understanding other human beings. We are in fact more in touch with the gift required for praying and listening to god, which include empathy, patience, introspection and faithfullness. We have all those qualities so much more strongly than men. So why is it most religions think that God mostly only talks through MEN! its just that men when speaking to God, use his message to promote themselves or their image or their standing in the community and a woman is more humble about it and will realise that to hear god, one has to learn to listen. To find an inner silence and listen with all your heart. That by nature makes us less likely to share our message with others. As we are normally listening to others. anyway babbling now... way off track.

[Imaan81]

Aphrodite,

A man might be able to marry up to 4 wives, but do you know what Allah gave to a mother that he didnt give to a father?

The prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was asked once 'where do you find Paradise?' He said, “ Paradise lies under the feet of thy mother.” Therefore, good behavior with parents, especially one’s mother is a great virtue and if done with the right spirit and in the right manner, it shall, insha’Allah, render one deserving of the everlasting bliss of Paradise.

[Rachael]

Thank you Tofah for finding me this link and caring enought to help me understand.


Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Qâsim

First: Polygamy was not innovated by Islam. It was known in Judaism and other religions. Many of the Prophets (peace be upon them) were polygamous, such as Abraham and Sulayman, as mentioned in the Torah.

I dont know why he makes this point, regardless of who invented the concept, Islam have adopted it and therefore it is Islamic.



Second: With respect to polygamy, women cannot be compared with men, since comparison implies similarity with regard to the matter in question, which is not the case here. There are major differences between men and women:

· Women have menstrual cycles for quite a long period of their lives, while men do not.

· Fertility for men usually lasts longer than it does for women. Normally, women stop being fertile before 50, while most men continue to be fertile for a while longer..

Now this one has me fascinated! So what if men's fertility lasts longer, just because he can see seed a woman at 50 doesnt mean he should be doing it! If he has had the opportunity to have kids with his first wife, just because she has gotten older and has gone through menopause is not a reason to cast her aside for a Newer riper uterus! Gawd, basing marriage on reproduction is not a good marriage.


·Women go through pregnancy, delivery, and post-natal bleeding while men do not.

· Men can sire children several times in one year with multiple partners while women cannot do so. No matter how many partners she has, she can only carry the child of one at a time.

OMG :eek: and this is considered Godly? Just because a man CAN doesnt mean he should! Like I have said before I feel that Islam allows men his sexuality and desires to be expressed more naturally and openly than women. How many kids does a man think he needs?


Women have more affection than men and in most cases cannot behave unemotionally. The strong and concentrated affection women have does not allow them to cope in a relationship with many men and at the same time. Her nature prevents her from satisfying two men at one time.

So is he suggesting that men should be unemotional with his wives and that is better than being emotional with your partner? Who would want a husband that is not open with his feelings and emotional, that alone would mean he is not satisfying them.



If two men should approach one woman, it would cause cause confusion in genealogical relations.

well that has already been outruled due to dna testing.



Men are the ones commanded in Islam to protect and maintain women. They are obligated to spend on the family while women are not.

How is this a reason to justify having polygamy and outlawing polyandry?



For one woman to have more than one husband, there are many disadvantages. It is practically impossible for it to work. But more than one woman for one man is lawful in Islam for the following reasons:

1. Polygamy preserves the stability of families, for example if the first wife is barren or afflicted by some illness, polygamy will offer her a chance that can save her from divorce or living alone.

Once again how is this fair for a woman who's husband is infertile? Its not always the wifes fault ya know!



2. The nature of a man makes polygamy something of dire necessity, for their sexual desires can often not be fulfilled by one woman who goes through menses, pregnancy, post-natal bleeding, and sickness, all of which are barriers to sex, or due to the frequent need of men to travel. Polygamy is far better than adultery which is widespread in the West. Polygamy is also better than divorce.

Okay so we are not allowed to have many husbands because it only suits the desires, yet the writer of this is using mans desire as a reason for polygamy to exist, that is SO HIPPOCRITICAL



3. Polygamy benefits women. The second wife accepts it for her benefit to save her from staying alone; taking into account that she was not forced into it.

fair enough! BTW is sexual relationship between the wives allowable in islam?



4. It is the best solution to save women from being lonely. Women live longer than men, they are more numerous than men, and in many cases men are facing danger and death more than women.

RUBAIYAT!!!!!!!! AHEM!!!! Physical superiority could be seen as - not who runs the fastest but who wins the race! Women are phsycially superior because said time and again, we have better immunity and we live longer! Stronger doesnt equal superior! Read the 'hare and tortise' story :woohoo:



5. Islam has set conditions and controls that secure the woman’s rights. A man cannot have more than four wives. He has to treat all of his wives justly in living expenses, the time he spends with them, and in all matters under his power. Anyone incapable of being just will not be allowed to engage in polygamy. Allah says: “But if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one.”

Fair enough, so they should


We as Muslims believe that what Allah has made lawful is full of wisdom and justice and has been prescribed for the benefit of all mankind, whether we know the reasons for it or not. We should keep in mind that Allah did not even make it obligatory for us to marry in the first place. He encourages people to get married and allows polygamy for people who are capable of being just.

May Allah guide us all.


See God also tells us to question and be discerning of false teachings, and they can come in such clever guises! God does not ask us to believe things blindly but to question them. When something such as this subject can be argued so easily you have to question its authenticity of being gods word IMO.

[Rachael]

Aphrodite,

A man might be able to marry up to 4 wives, but do you know what Allah gave to a mother that he didnt give to a father?

The prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was asked once 'where do you find Paradise?' He said, “ Paradise lies under the feet of thy mother.” Therefore, good behavior with parents, especially one’s mother is a great virtue and if done with the right spirit and in the right manner, it shall, insha’Allah, render one deserving of the everlasting bliss of Paradise.

LOL well Allah has never met my mother then LOL. Beautiful well intentioned lady she is, but Oh my goodness she is hard! so very hard and unforgiving. Personally under the feet of ones mother is not always a pretty experience!

[Rubaiyat]

living in a joint family is not as beneficial because you spend twice as much on food, housing (need a large house), transport, electricity, water, EVERYTHING. but one extra husband does not take much from the economics of the house. he adds much more than would use. To share with another family would only create the same financial hardships and cause more stress. Not a solution.

I come from a family that used to live in a joint family situation and it is a lot more economically benefitial. A number of my immidiate relatives live under joint family. So I got first hard experiece of the pros and cons and the cons at all.


Also why wriggle out of my very clear and basic response. You asked for One good practical reason and I gave you one. Now you just are trying to discredit it.

In Islam a man in a polygamic relationship must provide individual places living (home) to his each wife. Apply that to your polyandryc household and this security concept will not hold any ground.

When I asked for a practical solution I meant a solution that polyandry can provide that other alternatives cannot. Sorry if I didn't word it properly. Once again, introduction of polygamy in Islam was to solve a specific social crisis and you agreed that it was a very good solution.

[your sister]

Physical dominance doesnt mean that a man deserves to dominate women. It means he can go run and hunt and spear big Mammoths! That is why they were made superior, so as they can physically hunt and protect.

very true and thats basically the islamic concept aswell, i Really dont feel that u have an issue with polygamy like its a bad thing or the wrong thing but u dont understand why polyandry is not permitted in islam ? is that it or am i way off track :)?


In this society we dont need big strong men as much anymore to go hunt for us, in fact women are expected to do the hunting - which is now a trip to the supermarket. So you guys have even gotten out of your natural responsibility of having to supply the food.

true in some ways but "it is still their responsibility "to do so in islam and i get my hubby to do the shopping because trying to do it with kids is like torture for me , and i know it is my right over him for him to provide for me and go out get the shopping for me give $$$ support me protect. Wether we live in modern times or not it is still his responsibility and i honestly feel we still need it even in this society, like i have kids and if this law was'nt in place ALLAH knows best maybe hubby would have demanded or asked me to go out into the work force aswell as maintian home and kids so i still look at it as a mercy from ALLAH "and please dont assume that iv never worked in my life or that im lazy i am just a full time mum and would rather be home with my very demanding young children"


Women are dominant emotionally, we are dominant in communicating and we are dominant in understanding other human beings. We are in fact more in touch with the gift required for praying and listening to god, which include empathy, patience, introspection and faithfullness. We have all those qualities so much more strongly than men
NO one is denying that and if they are NO ONE should deny that and we dont deny that in islam woman have some qualities that men dont and vice versa sis........and by the way most reverts to islam are woman:) the first person to become muslim was a woman and first person to be die as a result of her islam was a woman..........we are mothers we are daughters we are wives we are sisters and we are much respected in islam, islam stopped the burial of little girls, gave us our inheritance rights when there was none, gave us rights over our husbands "iv already mentioned some of them" and much more . The prophet peace and blessings peace upon him said after ALLAH and the prophet of ALLAH u listen and love and respect your mother he said your mother 3 times then said your father. " i have to find the exact hadith for u inshALLAH"
i have to say thought i feel that the topic is drifting off to another issue and that is EQUALITY i feel that u feel its uneaqual or not fair men can take on more than one spouse but not vice versa .....in islam woman and men are EQUAL but NOT the same ...the following taken from an article on an islamic site......

There is no doubt that, as per the distribution of responsibilities, there are certain functions particular to the woman (for example, pregnancy, childbirth and the initial care and training of children). For the same reason, her body is built differently from man; and so is her psyche, which helps her with her duties, such as the love and affection for the child, and ability to sacrifice. What a sacrifice ! That it begins with the embryo, which develops with her blood and continues in the form of lactation after birth. The mother has such an abundance of patience and tolerance that she can fulfill all kinds of demands from her child with a smile, without expecting any thanks or reward. This and other similar qualities make women unique.


further more in islam men and woman have equal religious duties.....surat al ahzab chapter 33 aya 35 "Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women,the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so_ for them ALLAH has prepared forgiveness and great reward."

and ....

"O humanity! We have created you from a single male and female and have made you into nations and tribes that you may know one another (not that you may have pride over one another). Verily the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is the one most pious. "(Qur'an, 49:13)

To sum it up i believe the quraan is the word of ALLAH the creator of u and i and i believe he has taught us that he prohibits harmful things "alcahol,drugs ect." and permits things which contain benefit ie. polygamy........hope that was any help took me a while to type up with kids driving mental in the background:thumbsup:

[Rachael]

I come from a family that used to live in a joint family situation and it is a lot more economically benefitial. A number of my immidiate relatives live under joint family. So I got first hard experiece of the pros and cons and the cons at all.



In Islam a man in a polygamic relationship must provide individual places living (home) to his each wife. Apply that to your polyandryc household and this security concept will not hold any ground.

When I asked for a practical solution I meant a solution that polyandry can provide that other alternatives cannot. Sorry if I didn't word it properly. Once again, introduction of polygamy in Islam was to solve a specific social crisis and you agreed that it was a very good solution.


But the problem no longer exists therefore the solution is no longer necessary. Islam holds so much pride in the fact that is has been unchanged for a thousand years, like this is a bastion of purity. And puts down westerners for their adaptation to change and says we are wishy washy in morals etc because one day something is bad and the next day it is acceptable.

To persist with a 'solution' that is morally compromising to the current society is no longer a pure or godly thing, but taking advantage of an outdated rule due to physical satisfaction, which is also called 'desires' and desire is something that Islam also teaches us to control. So I dont understand this, it does not make logical sense to me.

[your sister]

But the problem no longer exists therefore the solution is no longer necessary. Islam holds so much pride in the fact that is has been unchanged for a thousand years, like this is a bastion of purity
actually that is the MIRACLE of the quraan :)


To persist with a 'solution' that is morally compromising to the current society is no longer a pure or godly thing
says who? says u, like i said sis u it maybe for some and not for others and there are conditions on it, up to the "free" individuals at the end of the day. i dont see how its morally comprising anything :), u dont have to like it but others might


but taking advantage of an outdated rule due to physical satisfaction, which is also called 'desires' and desire is something that Islam also teaches us to control.
we have mentioned before thats not why it was revealed, its not about desires although could be used as a reason why one attains another wife or why a sis may choose to do polygamy. anyways desires are allowed in islam butt in a marriage ,u can do whatever u like when u like with ur spouse:thumbsup: and i think i mentioned before a muslim woman can even seek a divorce if her desires are not "satisfied" dono how that is backdated at all


it does not make logical sense to me.
your still finding it hard to understand polygamy? like dont take the concept on personally, ur kind of the free person on one hand who believes in a faith that gives the individual alot of freedom so why now are u having problems with this aphro , now im confused bout ur confusion honestly ....if u dont like it and dont want to understand it thats cool let it go dont let it weigh u down but u cant dicredit the fact that it does have alot of benefits in it and is practiced by people around the world its real its out there so just take a chill pill:thumbsup:

[tofah]

Thank you Tofah for finding me this link and caring enought to help me understand.

ur welcome

[Rachael]

very true and thats basically the islamic concept aswell, i Really dont feel that u have an issue with polygamy like its a bad thing or the wrong thing but u dont understand why polyandry is not permitted in islam ? is that it or am i way off track :)?

to a degree that is correct. But my arguement is that I dont think men can argue that polygamy is okay and justifyable and a practical solution, without being honest about the fact that denying polyandry is oppression. MOST women would abhor the idea of two husbands, I would. More bloody dirty undies and soxs lying around, more loud voices in the house which i find difficult to deal with as I find the sound of a mans voice raised very anxiety causing, even if it is just in fun and not in anger. It makes me nervous. I would also be jealous as a man would enjoy the conversation of another man over talking to me. I would be ganged up on in arguements etc etc etc I would not consider it a good thing. But to be considered INABLE to make that choice and decisiion on my own and denying me the right to express that by saying its just NOT ALLOWED BY GOD shits me off. Its an insult to my intelligence.



true in some ways but "it is still their responsibility "to do so in islam and i get my hubby to do the shopping because trying to do it with kids is like torture for me , and i know it is my right over him for him to provide for me and go out get the shopping for me give $$$ support me protect. Wether we live in modern times or not it is still his responsibility and i honestly feel we still need it even in this society, like i have kids and if this law was'nt in place ALLAH knows best maybe hubby would have demanded or asked me to go out into the work force aswell as maintian home and kids so i still look at it as a mercy from ALLAH "and please dont assume that iv never worked in my life or that im lazy i am just a full time mum and would rather be home with my very demanding young children"

Go girl! yep my hubby and i equally share the shopping responsibilities as well. And I would never think of you as lazy for those reasons I respect you. I have also been a stay at home mother for 14 years. Recently with my youngest child at school, year 1, I have more time and I am helping my husband in his company. However I dont enjoy it, and would rather be rewarded for my 14 years of house duties by now being able to rest. he understands this and wants the same for me. I am not a woman's libber however I am intelligent and dont like to be told how to live my life, I want the respect that I am capable of making the right decisions without MORAL LAWS AND fear of punishment in order to do so.



NO one is denying that and if they are NO ONE should deny that and we dont deny that in islam woman have some qualities that men dont and vice versa sis........and by the way most reverts to islam are woman:) the first person to become muslim was a woman and first person to be die as a result of her islam was a woman..........we are mothers we are daughters we are wives we are sisters and we are much respected in islam, islam stopped the burial of little girls, gave us our inheritance rights when there was none, gave us rights over our husbands "iv already mentioned some of them" and much more . The prophet peace and blessings peace upon him said after ALLAH and the prophet of ALLAH u listen and love and respect your mother he said your mother 3 times then said your father. " i have to find the exact hadith for u inshALLAH"

I completely respect and love what Islam gave to women in those dark times. However much progress is also been seen in other cultures with regards to womens rights as well. So in that same light, they are now equally in my eyes, with regards to the rights of women, good. The only difference now is that Islam has more restrictions on women than for instance the west does. So now West is more progressive with regards to womens rights, because we have been given the respect that we have the intelligence to choose for ourselves. YES many women dont understand that their choices in fact enslave them, but at least women like myself have the opportunity to make the right choices for myself, without being MADE to. I am more liberated, because I have the same benefits as muslim women in my life, but I achieved this through my own intelligence of what is good for me and my children.


i have to say thought i feel that the topic is drifting off to another issue and that is EQUALITY i feel that u feel its uneaqual or not fair men can take on more than one spouse but not vice versa .....in islam woman and men are EQUAL but NOT the same ...the following taken from an article on an islamic site......

I just want the men to be honest and say they want more than one wife because that is their DESIRE. I want them to admit it is for the purpose of having sexual partners to choose from. I dont have an issue with men having these natural desires, however I feel that justifying it as saying you are doing women a favour at the same time, is just making men feel they can have their desires fulfilled and at the same time, women have to acknowledge him as the head of the family and be submissive to his direction for the family. He has everything going his way and women dont.

A man is being told with this debate that they have the intelligence to work out if they can afford and care for more than 1 wife. But a woman is being told by outlawing it that she is not capable of making that same decision. The law is insulting the intelligence of a woman. screaming you are dumber and therefore need to be told what to do because you cant figure it out for yourself.

In fact I dont believe polygamy should be an option in any set of moral codes. I think monogomy is much more blessed and puts marriage in a very special place. whereas polygamy degrades the relationship. But I accept that is my opinion and dont expect it to be outlawed because I feel that way. I think its everyone's own decision to come to for themselves and I dont judge them for it. I may disagree and have an opinion, but I dont think they are necessarily bad or evil.


further more in islam men and woman have equal religious duties.....surat al ahzab chapter 33 aya 35 "Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women,the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so_ for them ALLAH has prepared forgiveness and great reward."
and ....

"O humanity! We have created you from a single male and female and have made you into nations and tribes that you may know one another (not that you may have pride over one another). Verily the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is the one most pious. "(Qur'an, 49:13)

Yes I acknowledge that the spirituality of islam seems equal. its the secondary rules such as hijab, polygamy and things like that are insulting to me as a woman, however i respect that other women dont feel that. But those rules exclude women like me. I understand the husband must have the permission of the wife to take on another wife also. But it still insults me that they have the option to ask their wife, but i am considered too stupid to have that choice. I accept i am physically weaker, but I am much more intellectually superior to many men I mix with. So I find that offensive.



To sum it up i believe the quraan is the word of ALLAH the creator of u and i and i believe he has taught us that he prohibits harmful things "alcahol,drugs ect." and permits things which contain benefit ie. polygamy........hope that was any help took me a while to type up with kids driving mental in the background

I accept that polygamy has SOME benefits back when the law was passed but now this law is abused because it is not needed anymore. AND if (sci fi moment) a disease developed that started killing only women and all of sudden the tables turned on the gender bias. Then Islam does not allow for a solution to this problem. There would be much more homosexuality, rape, theft of wives, and there is nothing muslims could do about it, because their law does not allow for change. Your religion would die out because your population would could not adjust to this imbalance of many men and few women, Men because it is their nature would then form another type of oppression, that would be the weaker men have less chance of having a woman, and they would be destroyed by their jealousy, which is another trait of men, and all the other things that make men weak.

Islam does not hold all the answers, because it does not hold one for this situation. EXCEPT that god would not make a law that is not good for us.

once again its just a matter of faith. and removal of using our brain that God also gave to us, to make us think things through for ourselves and find the best and most pure result.

[Rachael]

:rolleyes:

your still finding it hard to understand polygamy? like dont take the concept on personally, ur kind of the free person on one hand who believes in a faith that gives the individual alot of freedom so why now are u having problems with this aphro , now im confused bout ur confusion honestly ....if u dont like it and dont want to understand it thats cool let it go dont let it weigh u down but u cant dicredit the fact that it does have alot of benefits in it and is practiced by people around the world its real its out there so just take a chill pill:thumbsup

:rolleyes: not a good arguement sis. you could say the same about homosexuality and prostitution, cause they are real and out there too!:smack:

Cmon dont argue its a good and allowable thing based on because its out there so accept it.

we are meant to question Everything that does not feel true to ourselves. If I didnt then I would be out there screwing 10 men. based on the theory of yours that i shouldnt allow moral laws to weigh me down :rolleyes:

[Rachael]

my advice to women is that the spiritual side of ISLAM is wonderful. But always always question the laws enforced by man - and I am talking about the gender here not the species

[your sister]

to a degree that is correct. But my arguement is that I dont think men can argue that polygamy is okay and justifyable and a practical solution, without being honest about the fact that denying polyandry is oppression. MOST women would abhor the idea of two husbands, I would. More bloody dirty undies and soxs lying around, more loud voices in the house which i find difficult to deal with as I find the sound of a mans voice raised very anxiety causing, even if it is just in fun and not in anger. It makes me nervous. I would also be jealous as a man would enjoy the conversation of another man over talking to me. I would be ganged up on in arguements etc etc etc I would not consider it a good thing
lol lol lol havent cracked up in a while.....hehhee having said that the following...........

But to be considered INABLE to make that choice and decisiion on my own and denying me the right to express that by saying its just NOT ALLOWED BY GOD shits me off. Its an insult to my intelligence
i honestly dont have an answer to that cause i very much look at it differently as i said before i submit to the fact that ALLAH knows best and islam is for now and forever :) but i would reread ur answer that "hardship u speak of " i reckon ALLAH saved us from that, in polygamy u have same rights as any other wife for him to do shopping support u satisfy u ect. so its just like another marriage only u share the hubby with antoher sister who possibly needs the same support from this hubby


I am not a woman's libber however I am intelligent and dont like to be told how to live my life, I want the respect that I am capable of making the right decisions without MORAL LAWS AND fear of punishment in order to do so. thats cool and u are free to make choices ALLAH is not holding u back on earth live and do what u like

In fact I dont believe polygamy should be an option in any set of moral codes. I think monogomy is much more blessed and puts marriage in a very special place. whereas polygamy degrades the relationship. But I accept that is my opinion and dont expect it to be outlawed because I feel that way. I think its everyone's own decision to come to for themselves and I dont judge them for it. I may disagree and have an opinion, but I dont think they are necessarily bad or evil.
thats ok to personally not like, i discuss it with hubby all the time and i say i dotn feel that i would be ready right now psychologically emotionally if he was to take on another wife and he says thats ok i myself not psychologically emotionally FINANCIALLY to do so and dont know if it ever will be so we choose to be monogomus lol having said that i have friends who are in polygamy and one of them is an australian revet sister she is really happy so is the other wife and they are really good friends thats just one situation iv heard of not so pleasent situations but i look at it like this "every marriage has its own problems or struggles if u like"


The only difference now is that Islam has more restrictions on women than for instance the west does. So now West is more progressive with regards to womens rights, because we have been given the respect that we have the intelligence to choose for ourselves. YES many women dont understand that their choices in fact enslave them, but at least women like myself have the opportunity to make the right choices for myself, without being MADE to
honestly no one is forcing me to be a muslim no one is enforcing islam on me islam was a choice given to me by god just like it was given to u and i am free or liberated to choose islam and CHOOSE to follow what i believe is WORSHIP even motherhood cleaning the house given my husbands his rights as he gives me my rights this is all called "IBADA" worship of ALLAH and i dont feel restrained or oppressed no one is forcing me to pray no one is forcing me to wear the veil.......on the contrary this society makes me feel oppressed the make me feel like because i choose to be a stay at home mum and a "good wife" like i am a dumb useless thing not a contributor to the "free society" unless i rip off my veil dump my kids in child care and persue a career and a life i dont want and dont feel is my natural place to be. so yeh its my CHOICE to be a muslim and my CHOICE to do everything that comes under the fold of islam and i am HAPPY not oppressed LIBERATED and uplifted. i been there done that i did used to work i never wore veil before i had the life but can u say u have tried islam? and it didnt work out for u;) ?
basically THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION <<thats islam. your choice!



I just want the men to be honest and say they want more than one wife because that is their DESIRE. I want them to admit it is for the purpose of having sexual partners to choose from. I dont have an issue with men having these natural desires, however I feel that justifying it as saying you are doing women a favour at the same time, is just making men feel they can have their desires fulfilled and at the same time, women have to acknowledge him as the head of the family and be submissive to his direction for the family. He has everything going his way and women dont.

the laws are there for both men and woman if they do it to help the sister thats ok its allowed if they do it out of desire thats ok thats allowed, dont forget there is the woman involved in this u seemed to be kind of ticked off at the men but its about WOMAN having needs and desires aswell be it physical or psychological emotional and maty it takes 2 to tango a brother has to find not only the funding and the correct intention but also the willing wife to be , again its a CHOICE no one is forcing the man or the woman to do so.


. But it still insults me that they have the option to ask their wife, but i am considered too stupid to have that choice. I accept i am physically weaker, but I am much more intellectually superior to many men I mix with. So I find that offensive
i said it once will say it again dont take it personally its not for everyone its an option an alternative given to us , its the same free choices u speak of may ALLLAH help u and i and give u and i understanding always ameen:)

I accept that polygamy has SOME benefits back when the law was passed but now this law is abused because it is not needed anymore. AND if (sci fi moment) a disease developed that started killing only women and all of sudden the tables turned on the gender bias. Then Islam does not allow for a solution to this problem. There would be much more homosexuality, rape, theft of wives, and there is nothing muslims could do about it, because their law does not allow for change. Your religion would die out because your population would could not adjust to this imbalance of many men and few women, Men because it is their nature would then form another type of oppression, that would be the weaker men have less chance of having a woman, and they would be destroyed by their jealousy, which is another trait of men, and all the other things that make men weak.

Islam does not hold all the answers, because it does not hold one for this situation. EXCEPT that god would not make a law that is not good for us.

u dono how happy it makes me to see that u are not just for argumentative mode but for understanding inshALLAH, thing is i dont have the answer to this one basically because i dont have the knowledge in my brain that was given to me by ALLAH and i dotn want to rattle on and speak from my own desire ill leave it to someone who may have more knowledge inshALLAH . but i did want to mention that this has happened before in the time of prophet loot "....and ALLAH destroyed them "and thats not an answer" and homesexuality is evident today even without the scenario u put forward, i dont think its about lack of woman do u? infact in the chapter in the quraan prophet loot tells them people u have started a sin no one before u did this u leave the woman and go after men.ALLAH knows best


once again its just a matter of faith. and removal of using our brain that God also gave to us, to make us think things through for ourselves and find the best and most pure result.
this is now a little insulting in a way for me because its like saying im blind in faith and not at all utilising my brain and u have every right to ask what u want as i do in islam and seek evidence and proof and answers and it is ENCOURAGED , i dont have the answer because i dont have the knowledge what does that tell u? that i should just accept it or that i should seek knowledge to put forward an informative answer using my brain?:)

[Sammer]

In fact I dont believe polygamy should be an option in any set of moral codes. I think monogomy is much more blessed and puts marriage in a very special place. whereas polygamy degrades the relationship. But I accept that is my opinion and dont expect it to be outlawed because I feel that way. I think its everyone's own decision to come to for themselves and I dont judge them for it. I may disagree and have an opinion, but I dont think they are necessarily bad or evil.

Aphrodite,

Polygamy is neither compulosry nor encouraged. Yet if a man has the ability to do it and women have the option to enter into this type of arrangement, why get in the way of their free and democratic right to choose? Australia doesnt say anything when two men want to get married, why complain when a man and two women do?

You also need to understand not all women are like you. Some women do not mind the arrangement. Islam does not say you MUST marry multiple wives. But it is an option for those who wish to do so. It's a personal choice.




Yes I acknowledge that the spirituality of islam seems equal. its the secondary rules such as hijab, polygamy and things like that are insulting to me as a woman, however i respect that other women dont feel that. But those rules exclude women like me. I understand the husband must have the permission of the wife to take on another wife also. But it still insults me that they have the option to ask their wife, but i am considered too stupid to have that choice. I accept i am physically weaker, but I am much more intellectually superior to many men I mix with. So I find that offensive.

Polygamy is not a rule. It is allowed and an option to those who wish to do it. Keep in mind Islam is the only faith that actually restricted the number of wives a man can have. When I went to the US, it was very common to meet a Mormon who introduced me to his 6 wives - LOL!

And if hijab is offensive to you, you always have the option of not looking at it just like if you don't like the TV channel, you can change it. But keep in mind the hijab is ordained in the Bible too -


"And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved.

"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

"A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man."

"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."

"For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. "

1 Corinthians 11 5-11

[Rachael]

"A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man."

"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."

"For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. "

1 Corinthians 11 5-11

Exactly the type of scripture that infuriates me. Men in the image of God, women in the image of men!

That my friends is not God speaking! That is man (gender) speaking. Cannot you discern this for yourselves?

Let it be known and I scream it from the highest mountain "I AM NOT CREATED FOR NO MAN"

[Sammer]

I had a feeling those verses would drive you crazy LOL!

How do you discern between what is from God and what is from man?

[your sister]

Exactly the type of scripture that infuriates me. Men in the image of God, women in the image of men!

That my friends is not God speaking! That is man (gender) speaking. Cannot you discern this for yourselves?

Let it be known and I scream it from the highest mountain "I AM NOT CREATED FOR NO MAN"

:rolleyes: arent those scriptures from the bible?......anyways what are u doing with hubby? why are female and males together in other species? and where is this argument leading to:p...anyways whilst ur u there on the highest mountain take a deep breath of fresh air as i tell u this.......ehem not only were u created for a man and him for u but u were created FROM a man as islam teaches hawa "eve" was created from "adam" peace and blessings be upon hims rib :D

[Rachael]

Well I just dont accept that LOL. no way... fairy tales anyway.

*toddles off feeling very un-made from men*

*looks in mirror* nope no sign of man there!

deny this one absolutely LMAO.

what am i doing with my hubby? Choosing to be here.

[Rachael]

I had a feeling those verses would drive you crazy LOL!

How do you discern between what is from God and what is from man?

In my humble opinion, that is something for you to learn for yourself. It may be different for you than me.

but generally if it holds false teachings or practices its not from god. or it has been but construed and altered and polluted

[Sammer]

How do you work out what's false teachings? If you don't have a basis to begin with, the only way for you to do that is your own opinions which as you know, may be right or wrong.

But so far, Islam makes sense to you. The concept of God makes sense. If it makes sense, then explore more.

[your sister]

Well I just dont accept that LOL. no way... fairy tales anyway.

*toddles off feeling very un-made from men*

*looks in mirror* nope no sign of man there!

deny this one absolutely LMAO.

what am i doing with my hubby? Choosing to be here.

i so wish i was there to see ur face :D

[Rubaiyat]

But the problem no longer exists therefore the solution is no longer necessary.

Are you joking about the problem not existing today? Did you even go through the current population statistics that I referred to? Yes sure, there is no problem if you support 30 million female infanticide per year in India alone. Here, once again see this chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sex_ratio_total_population_per_country_smoot h.png). The vast majority of the western world where fortunately the evil of female infanticide doesn't exist, it IS a problem. His rules don't need ammendments every 10-15 years. It has no expiry date.


Islam holds so much pride in the fact that is has been unchanged for a thousand years, like this is a bastion of purity.
Damn right we are proud about it. The logic is pure and simple: God is capable of providing a book of gudance and law that is applicable to all of humanity of all times in every aspect of life. I can't possibly fathom that anyone will take up a scripture, claim it to be the word of God and propose an ammendment because it lacks something. What happened to notion of God being all-knowing and all-wise? He knows us better than we know ourselves. After all He did create us. Who are we to challenge the all-knowing and all-wise?


And puts down westerners for their adaptation to change and says we are wishy washy in morals etc because one day something is bad and the next day it is acceptable.

If you have problems with us considering fornication, homosexuality, abortion etc to be immoral, then you just have to live with it cause that is something we will never consider moral. Some of the social problems of the western world and the cause of it is evident. Western societies have many admirable qualities as well but that doesn't mean we will accept the bad that comes along with it. Just as you have the right to disagree and reject Islam, we have the right to reject what we consider immoral.

Do you accept everything that is accepable here or do you differ with some of the pactices (eg. abortion when the mother's life is not at risk)?


To persist with a 'solution' that is morally compromising to the current society is no longer a pure or godly thing, but taking advantage of an outdated rule due to physical satisfaction, which is also called 'desires' and desire is something that Islam also teaches us to control. So I dont understand this, it does not make logical sense to me.

You are wrong to think that we no longer have the sex ratio problem and hence we don't need this rule. The evidence is there in front of you and I can't help it if you choose to ignore it. It is anything but outdated. Once again, polygamy was permitted to protect women that would be left out without a life partner. It has been provided to protect women who face a difficult situation based on circumstances that we still face today. It is not to satisfy any desire.

[Rachael]

How do you work out what's false teachings? If you don't have a basis to begin with, the only way for you to do that is your own opinions which as you know, may be right or wrong.

But so far, Islam makes sense to you. The concept of God makes sense. If it makes sense, then explore more.


For me it gives me a physical reaction, some of these false teachings (disclaimer: what i consider to be so) make me feel physically sick when i read them. my whole self soul and body regects them.

also they have very obvious flaws such as this polygamy one does.

[Rachael]

Are you joking about the problem not existing today? Did you even go through the current population statistics that I referred to? Yes sure, there is no problem if you support 30 million female infanticide per year in India alone. Here, once again see this chart. The vast majority of the western world where fortunately the evil of female infanticide doesn't exist, it IS a problem. His rules don't need ammendments every 10-15 years. It has no expiry date.

Thats your opinion i respect that but I dont agree that the ratio is big enough to justify polygamy.



Do you accept everything that is accepable here or do you differ with some of the pactices (eg. abortion when the mother's life is not at risk)?

sorry i dont understand the question, reword?


It is not to satisfy any desire.

:brow: righto then! You keep believing that!, however it is only a half truth.

[Sammer]

For me it gives me a physical reaction, some of these false teachings (disclaimer: what i consider to be so) make me feel physically sick when i read them. my whole self soul and body regects them.

also they have very obvious flaws such as this polygamy one does.

You did not answer the question.

If Islam makes so much sense to you, why dont you look deeper into it?

And by the way, food or medicine can give you a reaction, it doesn't mean it's bad for you :D

[Sammer]

It looks like you are trying to force yourself on others Aphrodite.

Tell me, if two women and a man want to have a polygamy arrangement, what's the problem?

[Rubaiyat]

to a degree that is correct. But my arguement is that I dont think men can argue that polygamy is okay and justifyable and a practical solution, without being honest about the fact that denying polyandry is oppression.

Then why did you agree to polygamy to be a good solution to a practical problem when I gave you the statistics and situation to the gender ratio problem? I have shown you how this rule came into place in the first place. That is the core reason behind it. Yet, the very rule that came into protect women is now a rule of oppression? It would have been oppression if the rule was to satisfy mens' sexual desires. Is clearly not that and the resposibilities that comes with it is more like a deterrent.


But to be considered INABLE to make that choice and decisiion on my own and denying me the right to express that by saying its just NOT ALLOWED BY GOD shits me off. Its an insult to my intelligence.
The same thing can be said for a man who can't make a choice of having 10 wives and be limited to 4.


I am not a woman's libber however I am intelligent and dont like to be told how to live my life, I want the respect that I am capable of making the right decisions without MORAL LAWS AND fear of punishment in order to do so.

You don't want to bound by any rules and regulations, don't want to believe that God punishes those who does evil and rewards those who do good, don't want to believe in Judgement Day - fine. Then Islam is not for you.


I completely respect and love what Islam gave to women in those dark times. However much progress is also been seen in other cultures with regards to womens rights as well. So in that same light, they are now equally in my eyes, with regards to the rights of women, good.

Do you have the right to sue the immidiate man responsible for your care and protection if they refuse to do so? If you happen to be a widow, can you sue your son, father, uncle, cousin or anyone who is closest to you because they refuse to pay your bills and not provide a place to live in? What is your right over the male members of your extended family (and you have mentioned you have 45 cousins so I gess atleast 10 are men) to provide for you should your husband pass away?

Weigh that security against any Muslim woman and see where you stand.

Anything that you earn, does your husband have any right over it because he is also providing for the house hold? I won't have any right on anything my wife earns but she will have every right over my income. Weigh that.


The only difference now is that Islam has more restrictions on women than for instance the west does.
What restrictions are you talking about? Open up a thread with all the women issues you have about Islam, list them in point form and discuss.


So now West is more progressive with regards to womens rights, because we have been given the respect that we have the intelligence to choose for ourselves.
What new right has been given to women that isn't there in the Islamic world? Unless you are talking about the right to fulfill ones desires reagardless of the effects of those actions to family and overall society.


YES many women dont understand that their choices in fact enslave them, but at least women like myself have the opportunity to make the right choices for myself, without being MADE to.
So women who chose to a lifestyle that you don't agree with are dumb? Are you questioning the intelligence of women here who chose to devote their lives to God? Who is forcing any woman to DO anything that they don't want to?

Answer me this: Do you consider that I am oppressed because I must provide everything for my sister while she is unmarried or widowed (including her kids) regardless of how much money or property she inherits? In ruturn she has to do NOTHING for me. If she decides to remain unmarried for the rest of her life, I can't do anything about it. Her comfort, education and security is my still my sole responsibity.

Do you enjoy this right that my sister does as a Muslim woman?


I am more liberated, because I have the same benefits as muslim women in my life, but I achieved this through my own intelligence of what is good for me and my children.

No you do not have the same right as a Muslim woman. See my sisters example above.


I just want the men to be honest and say they want more than one wife because that is their DESIRE. I want them to admit it is for the purpose of having sexual partners to choose from.

One thing you are completely ignoring is the fact that a woman can divorce her husband if he decided to get another wife. So if you are a Muslim woman and see that your husband is getting married again (no matter what reason), you can always divorce him. That will clearly not give him the option to choose whom to sleep with. You have the control over that choice.


I dont have an issue with men having these natural desires, however I feel that justifying it as saying you are doing women a favour at the same time, is just making men feel they can have their desires fulfilled and at the same time, women have to acknowledge him as the head of the family and be submissive to his direction for the family. He has everything going his way and women dont.

What is your solution to the gender ratio problem that we still have today?


A man is being told with this debate that they have the intelligence to work out if they can afford and care for more than 1 wife. But a woman is being told by outlawing it that she is not capable of making that same decision. The law is insulting the intelligence of a woman. screaming you are dumber and therefore need to be told what to do because you cant figure it out for yourself.

The condition is if he can equally provide for and be just to them. Providing for the family (finance and security) is not the women's responsibility in the first place. Also any woman can file for divorce if she is opposed to her husband getting a second wife.


In fact I dont believe polygamy should be an option in any set of moral codes. I think monogomy is much more blessed and puts marriage in a very special place. whereas polygamy degrades the relationship. But I accept that is my opinion and dont expect it to be outlawed because I feel that way. I think its everyone's own decision to come to for themselves and I dont judge them for it. I may disagree and have an opinion, but I dont think they are necessarily bad or evil.

Once again, get this clear:
1. Polygamy is solution to a problem (gender ratio).
2. It is optional
3. A woman can file for divorce if her husband is getting another wife.


Yes I acknowledge that the spirituality of islam seems equal. its the secondary rules such as hijab, polygamy and things like that are insulting to me as a woman, however i respect that other women dont feel that.

Why won't you accept that woman does not have to wear the Hijab if she does not want to devote to God? Just like praying and fasting is compulsory, one cannot be forced to do it, so is Hijab.

As for polygamy, no matter how many times I show you the reason behind it and the problem that it solves, you refuse it by claiming we don't have that problem today (which we clearly do)


But those rules exclude women like me. I understand the husband must have the permission of the wife to take on another wife also. But it still insults me that they have the option to ask their wife, but i am considered too stupid to have that choice. I accept i am physically weaker, but I am much more intellectually superior to many men I mix with. So I find that offensive.

So you just want to have that option even though there is no need for it and won't solve any problem, if anything it will only make things complicated. Islam doesn't work that way.

I'm sure you are intellectually smart and probably out smart many men (inlcuding myself) in many aspects. That is normal and I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

Consider my sisters right over me, and tell me if you find it offensive for men.


I accept that polygamy has SOME benefits back when the law was passed but now this law is abused because it is not needed anymore.

If law is abused, it's the fault of the people not the law. Just like it's the drivers fault for speeding, not the car. As for the "need", I don't know how clear the facts and figures have to be that I have given to you. I seriously can't do anything if you choose to deny them.


AND if (sci fi moment) a disease developed that started killing only women and all of sudden the tables turned on the gender bias. Then Islam does not allow for a solution to this problem.

Unless you artifitially create a situation (e.g: female infanticide) Islam is always applicable. Last 14 centruries is a witness to that.


There would be much more homosexuality, rape, theft of wives, and there is nothing muslims could do about it, because their law does not allow for change. Your religion would die out because your population would could not adjust to this imbalance of many men and few women, Men because it is their nature would then form another type of oppression, that would be the weaker men have less chance of having a woman, and they would be destroyed by their jealousy, which is another trait of men, and all the other things that make men weak.

If you want to play the game of hypothetical "What ifs" the only law that will survive is the law of desire. Islam is not that. But, we live in the world of "This is" not "What if".


Islam does not hold all the answers, because it does not hold one for this situation. EXCEPT that god would not make a law that is not good for us.

As I said above, Islam does not cater for the hypothetical world, but the real world we live it.


once again its just a matter of faith. and removal of using our brain that God also gave to us, to make us think things through for ourselves and find the best and most pure result.

Still waiting for a better solution to the gender ratio problem that we have today.

[isa]

... and I scream it from the highest mountain "I AM NOT CREATED FOR NO MAN"

Sorry Rachael... Couldn't hear you.

You were too far up :rolleyes:

However, I feel the urge to put two cents into the slot as well inshaaAllaah...

If you are still up there, I will use speakers inshaaAllaah...

(adjusting speakers) kshht kshht... testing, testing... 123... testing...

Rachael,

You believe in a system that you made up and grabbed what pleases you from this religion here, and what pleases you from that religion there.

As long as you follow what feels right, and stay away from what feels wrong, then you believe that you are on the right track. Am I correct?

Let me ask you, have you ever believed in something, only later on to decide that it is wrong to believe as such?

If you answered in the affirmative, then let me remind you, that your other beliefs may be just as wrong, but only time will show you that you are wrong in them also.

How about the reverse... Have you ever held a belief that something was wrong, only later to feel the opposite?

Islaam may seem wrong to you or some other people in certain aspects that Allaah or His Messenger taught us.

Just because we can not fathom Allaah's Omniscient Knowledge and orders, does this indeed give us the right to reject His commands because it feels wrong?

Please, let me ask you a last question...

NOTE: I will use the term engineer in abundance, only to make the statement gender neutral

A unique engineer that is an engineer of everything to such a degree that the engineer is unparalleled in every facet that the engineer is an engineer of, builds something. Who would know better than the engineer about what is built, without exception?

[isa]

Polygamy is not just about fulfilling a mans desires. It is a huge responsibility to the effect that if he is not equal to all wives, on judgement day, half of him will be in hell (please correct me anyone if this is wrong).

I won't correct you, rather just ask, where did you get that from :eek: :confused:

[Rubaiyat]

Thats your opinion i respect that but I dont agree that the ratio is big enough to justify polygamy.

A 0.01% of imbalance (which is clearly the case where female infanticide is not practiced) will cause hundreds of thousands of women who will never get a life partner. What will you answer to those women?

Polygamy is provision provided to solve for this problem.

We faced this crisis of gender imbalance in Europe after World War II. You still want to deny social problem?


sorry i dont understand the question, reword?
Do you agree with everything that is considered moral and acceptable in the Western society like abortion (if the mother's life is not at risk)?

[Rachael]

You did not answer the question.

If Islam makes so much sense to you, why dont you look deeper into it?

And by the way, food or medicine can give you a reaction, it doesn't mean it's bad for you :D


I have explained before I am not interested into converting but in understanding the faith. To help me be tolerant and give me a perspective on the muslim culture. I have until joining here known nothing of it and only heard people talking badly about it. so I wanted to find for myself what the truth is.

I would make a lousy muslim woman LMAO.

[Rachael]

It looks like you are trying to force yourself on others Aphrodite.

Tell me, if two women and a man want to have a polygamy arrangement, what's the problem?

Sammer that is not my arguement, i have repeated it several times. The problem is that only men are considered in islam to be able to make that choice for themselves whereas women are not considered intelligent enough to make choices such as Polyandry and instead has to have rules and laws invoked on her.

Men have choices
Women have laws.

[Rachael]

This 'she can file for divorce if she dont like the situation' is really starting to annoy me Ruba.

Divorce isnt an easy decision and tell me if she has a divorce who is responsibile for paying for the raising of her kids?

divorce is a way for people to avoid learning how to deal with one another. oh no worries we can divorce.

the complication of divorce on kids is huge. its not an easy thing and if a couple go into marriage with the attitude ' oh well i can just get a divorce' well they are doomed from the beginning.

[Rachael]

Then why did you agree to polygamy to be a good solution to a practical problem when I gave you the statistics and situation to the gender ratio problem? I have shown you how this rule came into place in the first place. That is the core reason behind it. Yet, the very rule that came into protect women is now a rule of oppression? It would have been oppression if the rule was to satisfy mens' sexual desires. Is clearly not that and the resposibilities that comes with it is more like a deterrent.


The same thing can be said for a man who can't make a choice of having 10 wives and be limited to 4.



You don't want to bound by any rules and regulations, don't want to believe that God punishes those who does evil and rewards those who do good, don't want to believe in Judgement Day - fine. Then Islam is not for you.



Do you have the right to sue the immidiate man responsible for your care and protection if they refuse to do so? If you happen to be a widow, can you sue your son, father, uncle, cousin or anyone who is closest to you because they refuse to pay your bills and not provide a place to live in? What is your right over the male members of your extended family (and you have mentioned you have 45 cousins so I gess atleast 10 are men) to provide for you should your husband pass away?

Weigh that security against any Muslim woman and see where you stand.

Anything that you earn, does your husband have any right over it because he is also providing for the house hold? I won't have any right on anything my wife earns but she will have every right over my income. Weigh that.


What restrictions are you talking about? Open up a thread with all the women issues you have about Islam, list them in point form and discuss.


What new right has been given to women that isn't there in the Islamic world? Unless you are talking about the right to fulfill ones desires reagardless of the effects of those actions to family and overall society.


So women who chose to a lifestyle that you don't agree with are dumb? Are you questioning the intelligence of women here who chose to devote their lives to God? Who is forcing any woman to DO anything that they don't want to?

Answer me this: Do you consider that I am oppressed because I must provide everything for my sister while she is unmarried or widowed (including her kids) regardless of how much money or property she inherits? In ruturn she has to do NOTHING for me. If she decides to remain unmarried for the rest of her life, I can't do anything about it. Her comfort, education and security is my still my sole responsibity.

Do you enjoy this right that my sister does as a Muslim woman?



No you do not have the same right as a Muslim woman. See my sisters example above.



One thing you are completely ignoring is the fact that a woman can divorce her husband if he decided to get another wife. So if you are a Muslim woman and see that your husband is getting married again (no matter what reason), you can always divorce him. That will clearly not give him the option to choose whom to sleep with. You have the control over that choice.



What is your solution to the gender ratio problem that we still have today?



The condition is if he can equally provide for and be just to them. Providing for the family (finance and security) is not the women's responsibility in the first place. Also any woman can file for divorce if she is opposed to her husband getting a second wife.



Once again, get this clear:
1. Polygamy is solution to a problem (gender ratio).
2. It is optional
3. A woman can file for divorce if her husband is getting another wife.



Why won't you accept that woman does not have to wear the Hijab if she does not want to devote to God? Just like praying and fasting is compulsory, one cannot be forced to do it, so is Hijab.

As for polygamy, no matter how many times I show you the reason behind it and the problem that it solves, you refuse it by claiming we don't have that problem today (which we clearly do)



So you just want to have that option even though there is no need for it and won't solve any problem, if anything it will only make things complicated. Islam doesn't work that way.

I'm sure you are intellectually smart and probably out smart many men (inlcuding myself) in many aspects. That is normal and I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

Consider my sisters right over me, and tell me if you find it offensive for men.



If law is abused, it's the fault of the people not the law. Just like it's the drivers fault for speeding, not the car. As for the "need", I don't know how clear the facts and figures have to be that I have given to you. I seriously can't do anything if you choose to deny them.



Unless you artifitially create a situation (e.g: female infanticide) Islam is always applicable. Last 14 centruries is a witness to that.



If you want to play the game of hypothetical "What ifs" the only law that will survive is the law of desire. Islam is not that. But, we live in the world of "This is" not "What if".



As I said above, Islam does not cater for the hypothetical world, but the real world we live it.



Still waiting for a better solution to the gender ratio problem that we have today.



Oh this is all well and good but who is forcing the man to do these things? The australian government isnt. and how many of them follow through with these responsbilities?

[Rachael]

A 0.01% of imbalance (which is clearly the case where female infanticide is not practiced) will cause hundreds of thousands of women who will never get a life partner. What will you answer to those women?

Polygamy is provision provided to solve for this problem.

We faced this crisis of gender imbalance in Europe after World War II. You still want to deny social problem?


Do you agree with everything that is considered moral and acceptable in the Western society like abortion (if the mother's life is not at risk)?

is that not equal to 1 in every 100 woman? that is pretty small. and I am pretty certain that there would be at least 1 in every 100 women that would be a lesbian right?

and no i dont agree with abortion, however I think that is should not be illegalised, forcing those women that believe that is alright into back yard abortions.

just because i dont believe in it, should not make women risk their lives, considering they may be doing it because they cannot afford to be pregnant at this point in their lives for whatever reason.

its not my place to judge them. nor do i wish them to die in a back yard abortion.

I am one of those women Ruba that have had an abortion. And I was not in my right mind at the time and emotionally pushed into it by people i trusted. So if it was not for the clinic, i would have had it on some filthy table in some back ally room. no thanks.


As it was I have never emotionally healed from that experience, imagine how much worse it would have been for women going through what i went through 100 years ago.

[Rachael]

Sorry Rachael... Couldn't hear you.

You were too far up :rolleyes:
However, I feel the urge to put two cents into the slot as well inshaaAllaah...
If you are still up there, I will use speakers inshaaAllaah...
(adjusting speakers) kshht kshht... testing, testing... 123... testing...
Rachael,
You believe in a system that you made up and grabbed what pleases you from this religion here, and what pleases you from that religion there.
As long as you follow what feels right, and stay away from what feels wrong, then you believe that you are on the right track. Am I correct?
Let me ask you, have you ever believed in something, only later on to decide that it is wrong to believe as such?
If you answered in the affirmative, then let me remind you, that your other beliefs may be just as wrong, but only time will show you that you are wrong in them also.
How about the reverse... Have you ever held a belief that something was wrong, only later to feel the opposite?
Islaam may seem wrong to you or some other people in certain aspects that Allaah or His Messenger taught us.
Just because we can not fathom Allaah's Omniscient Knowledge and orders, does this indeed give us the right to reject His commands because it feels wrong?

Please, let me ask you a last question...

NOTE: I will use the term engineer in abundance, only to make the statement gender neutral

A unique engineer that is an engineer of everything to such a degree that the engineer is unparalleled in every facet that the engineer is an engineer of, builds something. Who would know better than the engineer about what is built, without exception?

This is assuming that the Quran is the word of God. Yes?

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

Rachael your problem is not issues such as Polyandry Vs Polygamy, or any of the hundred other issues you may have with the lawful and prohibited within Islam.

Your problem lies within the chain of command, ie. God (Allah) and His Messenger. Solve that problem and everything else will fall into place. Otherwise, you're really just wasting your time with all of these minor issues.

Islam makes sense to those who have it.

[S I M B A]

in africa we got nothing to do with this topic.

[Rubaiyat]

Divorce isnt an easy decision and tell me if she has a divorce who is responsibile for paying for the raising of her kids?

The father. Providing for kids is never the responsibility of the mother.

[Rubaiyat]

Oh this is all well and good but who is forcing the man to do these things? The australian government isnt. and how many of them follow through with these responsbilities?

Great, if a man does not undertake his resposiblities it is the fault of Islam? According to Australian legal system the father is resposible for child care support. Yet many men abandon their kids. Shall I take a shot at Australian law now?

In an Islamic state a woman can sue if she is not taken care off and the law will make sure the man is responsible.

Btw, my very large extended family and Muslim friends that I know, any women in these families can quit their job when ever they want and they very much know they will cared for. Us guys are hardcoded from our childhood that providing is our headache. As for me when I get married, I expect $0 input from my wife while I have to provide for her.

Also you haven't answered my question: After I have explained the right my sister has over me as a Muslim woman, do you still think you enjoy the same level of rights as her?


is that not equal to 1 in every 100 woman? that is pretty small. and I am pretty certain that there would be at least 1 in every 100 women that would be a lesbian right?

Yes, 1 in a 100. That translates to 30 million out of 3 billion of the world female population. That's 1.5 times the whole of Australia full of women with no man in sight. Got a solution for this "small" number?

BTW, homosexuality is not an answer and not permitted in Islam.


and no i dont agree with abortion, however I think that is should not be illegalised, forcing those women that believe that is alright into back yard abortions.

just because i dont believe in it, should not make women risk their lives, considering they may be doing it because they cannot afford to be pregnant at this point in their lives for whatever reason.

This is where Islam's answer to "complete way of life" kicks in. Affordibility should not be the mothers concern in the first place. Forcing a mother to pay for her child's welfare is the WORST form of oppression. It is truly pathetic, yes pathetic that men here are not forced to pay for that child. How can you possibly claim that women here enjoy more rights then her Muslim couterpart, when a woman here can dumped by a man and then be left alone to raise that child? If the father passes away, why is it only her responsibility alone to provide for the child. Where is her father, brothers and others in the extended family?

Provide a stable social network that will gurantee financial security of every woman and then see if the scenario changes.

It is truly tragic that someone can make a case to kill an unborn child because they cannot afford to have one for what ever reason. The only acceptable reason is the life of the mother. Nothing else can be measured against the life of a child.

Islamic social framework is to make sure never a woman has to face a situation like that. That is why it is so against fornication. Anything that leads to this situation is forbidden.


I am one of those women Ruba that have had an abortion. And I was not in my right mind at the time and emotionally pushed into it by people i trusted. So if it was not for the clinic, i would have had it on some filthy table in some back ally room. no thanks.

As it was I have never emotionally healed from that experience,

I'm pretty sure the whole experience was a traumatic one and really don't want you to recall any of it as it's too personal. But I guess everytime we mention abortion it will remind you of that.


imagine how much worse it would have been for women going through what i went through 100 years ago.

Islamic social network prevents this very possibility. It pomotes anything that will prevent a situation like this to occur and oppose anything that will take us to a step forward towards this. Try to see the broader picture. Every human action has a repercussion and we often tend to ignore them or do not realise them. This is why we stick to God's rule as He is aware of everything and know what is best for us.

[Sammer]

Sammer that is not my arguement, i have repeated it several times. The problem is that only men are considered in islam to be able to make that choice for themselves whereas women are not considered intelligent enough to make choices such as Polyandry and instead has to have rules and laws invoked on her.

Men have choices
Women have laws.

I mean seriously now Aphrodite. Surely you're not using that as an argument when you have clearly stated the reverse is just not logical. I clearly stated women choose to be in that relationship. What's the big deal?

[Rachael]

The father. Providing for kids is never the responsibility of the mother.

do the children still live with the mother if she divorces her husband?

[Rachael]

Yes Sammer but women in Islam also are taught that the husband runs the family. So its very difficult for some more meek and quiet women to speak up for what they want, as they are taught that what they want is to make their hubby happy because he has so much pressure having to provide for the family etc.

Rubaiyat, yes yes it all sounds good enough, but there is more than just these guidelines to consider as well.

No everyone is muslim and in fact muslim is the minority here in australia. without the muslim state there is no ability to enforce these laws, so women here in Australia muslim or not muslim are not protected by these islamic laws, as they cannot be enforced.

so you here in australia are relying on the nature of the men to be honorable in order for them to fulfil those laws.

Which of course not all will be.

You used homosexuality in your arguement with Ratio and gender earlier on stating the number of homosexual males in NY and this increased the number of females. therefore you introduced that, and therefore I can also use lesbian as an example. And yes I do believe that theire would be 30 million lesbians world wide easily. so they are not alone, nor desire men and most certainly would have no desire to become muslim as she would feel her right to be a lesbian would be violated.


Ruba you talk so passionately and yet at the same time it sounds naive to me. You talk like it is possible to have a islamic state in every country and if we did, the place would be a paradise.

You dont take into account the freedom of people to choose not to be Islamic and they still deserve rights. Under Islam, only those that follow muslim law are treated well. the rest well are stoned etc.

This is not acceptable. Religion and Politics are not acceptable. It denys a person a free choice, and that is the one gift that has been given to us from God. Only he can judge us.

I dont mind the moral code of Islam on many points i have said that time and again, its when it becomes the controlling of a state that I start to disrespect it. it seems good but it causes oppression, such as whippings for adultery or even stoning and various other things like the chopping off the hand of theif. These are all things that many people cannot accept regardless of whether muslims think it is okay or not or see reason in.

And those that are not able to accept what you consider to be common sense are not necessarily unable to see the bigger picture of what you are trying to get across, but probably moreso reject it because there are parts to islam that go against what people naturally feel to be right or wrong.

Do I have more or less rights than your sister? Well that depends on the males in her family doesn it? If a sister chooses to not get her self educated because she wants to always be a homemaker and be cared for by the men, and that is her right, but she is sorely disappointed because either 1. all the men are in able to care for her due to finances, 2. they have all died before she is in need of them. 3. they are just bastards and dont want to fulfil their obligations.

in australia this can happen because we dont have the government forcing the men too. and therefore i think i am better off, because i am aware that I am on my own in life and I dont depend on anyone to pick me up when I am down. Whereas your women may forgo education or career advancement because they are deluded into believing they dont need to worry as they will always be cared for. It takes a lot of trust in the men to be able to be a woman in your religion. And in my life, except for my husband, men have proven time and time again how untrustworthy they are. how easy they avoid their responsibilties and many other negative things i could go on with.

So if men can only do the right thing if under the fear of punishment or hellfire, more shame on them.

You want me to have faith that your men will do all these things willingly and by choice. But then you dont accept my beliefs that people are capalable of making good decisions without the Quran to guide them.

that muslim men can do all these remarkable supportive things. But you fail to tell me how many men in your culture in the western environment actually do not. How many bad stories are there when they are letting their family down?

my mother had a saying "if its too good to be true, thats because it is"

good practical concepts but given the diversity of people and their individuality it will not work for everyone and those that it does not work for will be oppressed if enforced politically.

[Rachael]

Also add here:

You mention you have many women converting to islam, fair enough many women would like the protection of these laws, however not all women would.

But! In Australia and western cultures, do you have men leaving in droves.

now this would explain to me why polygamy is still existent in Islam.

does the western islamic population have women outnumbering men by a larger ratio than islamic states.

[Ibn Farooq]

Dear Aphrodite
Hello,
You have raised a question which is very popular among non-muslims and also many muslims sometimes fail to understand it. With the advances in science and technology, some of the reasons may seem irrelevant.Please understand that I am not taking anything away from the validity of the question, unless you ask questions about Islam you will not know about it and I must congratulate you on asking questions and debating vigorously rather than forming an opinion like many people these days do.
But I regret to say that the order of asking the question is incorrect. Please bear with me as it might turn out to be a long post.

When Islam was revealed, Allah did not impose restrictions straight away. The first section of revelation had to do with matters of faith. If people straight away were told that if they accepted Islam, they have to leave alcohol, adultery, fornication etc, not many would have accepted, instead Allah in his infinte wisdom, first made the base strong, as we know, without a strong base, one cannot build a long lasting building. The base was of faith, of love of Allah and his messenger. This was all in Mecca. That is why many Surah's (chapters in the Holy Quran) that were revealed in Mecca were short, known for their fiery eloquence and concerned with matters of Aqeedah (faith, belief in Allah, His messenger (SAW) and the other pillars of Islam.) Once the base was made strong, once it was made clear that Allah is the creator of all and the love of Allah and His messenger (SAW) was set firmly in the hearts of muslims, then and then only were the laws of Islam introduced, hence the chapters revealed in Medina mostly dealt with fiqh and sharia laws.

Similarly, this is my personal and humble opinion that I dont think we can convince you that this law that u discussed or any other law which you may not understand is the correct one unless you believe in Allah the way muslims do. It is like trying to do calculus before understanding addition and subtraction.

Please understand that it is not my intention to offend you and if I have done that, it is unintentional and I apologize for that.

Thank You.

[Sammer]

Yes Sammer but women in Islam also are taught that the husband runs the family. So its very difficult for some more meek and quiet women to speak up for what they want, as they are taught that what they want is to make their hubby happy because he has so much pressure having to provide for the family etc.

What do you mean "runs the family"? He is the head of the house yes meaning he is responsible for them. He must provide for them, that's his duty. What is wrong with that? Speak up about what exactly? She wants to go shopping more? She wants more sex? Please be more specific.

You are still fixated on this polygamy issue and it's really very simple. Some people choose this lifestyle. Freedom is about choice. So if they openly want this, why are you so tied up about it?

Islam makes it permissible, that's it.

You are obsessing over very trivial matters.

Ibn Farooq made an excellent post which I tried alluding to earlier about the concept of God.

[your sister]

in africa we got nothing to do with this topic.

soooooooooo not true:rolleyes:

[dijma]

In reference to choices, women due to the laws of multiple marriages, actually have a far greater choice to whom they marry as opposed to men. Once a sister is married, no other man can approach her. If a man is married, he still can be approached by other women. (a point Yusuf Estes made during his lectures)

In an Islamic state, a divorced women if not already re-married will be the responsibility of the government if the ex-husband is for any reason incabaple of supporting them.

[isa]

This is assuming that the Quran is the word of God. Yes?

Heheh Rachael, do not assume :)

I tried forming my statements and questions as neutral as possible, so you wouldn't ask this question! lol!!!

So, just an answer to the questions as they are, should be fine inshaaAllaah.

If you wish to answer in sections, ie, if you believe that a question I asked could have different answers if they were placed under different circumstances, then please, go ahead and answer all possible aspects. I don't mind.

I just tried to make it simpler for you to answer.

Rehash of my questions:

1) Do you believe in a system that you made up and grabbed what pleases you from this religion here, and what pleases you from that religion there?
And as long as you follow what feels right, and stay away from what feels wrong, then you believe that you are on the right track?

2) Have you ever believed in something, only later on to decide that it is wrong to believe as such?

3) Have you ever held a belief that something was wrong, only later to feel the opposite?

4) A unique engineer that is an engineer of everything to such a degree that the engineer is unparalleled in every facet that the engineer is an engineer of, builds something. Who do you believe would know better than the engineer about what is built, without exception? (Bold part added in to the question, in this post.)

[Rubaiyat]

do the children still live with the mother if she divorces her husband?

The mother has the custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1155460533539). But she can never deny visits from the father unless there is some Islamic reason (for example he does stuff like gambling in his home).

If the child has reached puberty, it is the child's decision.

[Sammer]

The mother has the custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1155460533539). But she can never deny visits from the father unless there is some Islamic reason (for example he does stuff like gambling in his home).

If the child has reached puberty, it is the child's decision.

The mother has initial custody yes, that's agreed upon by all 4 schools of thought. The age where custody transfers to the father differs though and that's a side issue.

Rachel, it seems you are basing everything on your innate feelings and opinions - which naturally, are subject to change over time, yeah? One cannot objectively look at a situation like that.

What if in a year or so, you change your mind about polygamy, only an example here. If that's the case, does that suddenly make the Quran the word of God because Rachel thinks it is?

Or perhaps it may have been the word of God all along but Rachel didn't know everything there is to know?

Which seems more plausible?

I definately see what you are trying to say as I've heard this reasoning before but it's not difficult to work with it if you are open minded.

[Rachael]

Dear Aphrodite
Hello,
You have raised a question which is very popular among non-muslims and also many muslims sometimes fail to understand it. With the advances in science and technology, some of the reasons may seem irrelevant.Please understand that I am not taking anything away from the validity of the question, unless you ask questions about Islam you will not know about it and I must congratulate you on asking questions and debating vigorously rather than forming an opinion like many people these days do.
But I regret to say that the order of asking the question is incorrect. Please bear with me as it might turn out to be a long post.

When Islam was revealed, Allah did not impose restrictions straight away. The first section of revelation had to do with matters of faith. If people straight away were told that if they accepted Islam, they have to leave alcohol, adultery, fornication etc, not many would have accepted, instead Allah in his infinte wisdom, first made the base strong, as we know, without a strong base, one cannot build a long lasting building. The base was of faith, of love of Allah and his messenger. This was all in Mecca. That is why many Surah's (chapters in the Holy Quran) that were revealed in Mecca were short, known for their fiery eloquence and concerned with matters of Aqeedah (faith, belief in Allah, His messenger (SAW) and the other pillars of Islam.) Once the base was made strong, once it was made clear that Allah is the creator of all and the love of Allah and His messenger (SAW) was set firmly in the hearts of muslims, then and then only were the laws of Islam introduced, hence the chapters revealed in Medina mostly dealt with fiqh and sharia laws.

Similarly, this is my personal and humble opinion that I dont think we can convince you that this law that u discussed or any other law which you may not understand is the correct one unless you believe in Allah the way muslims do. It is like trying to do calculus before understanding addition and subtraction.

Please understand that it is not my intention to offend you and if I have done that, it is unintentional and I apologize for that.

Thank You.


Thank you for that, you actually have put into text exactly what I have concluded myself and why i feel I need to probably just try to control my curiousity of asking so many questions and just try to understand what muslims believe. Because at this point in my life, I cant accept any religion. but i do wish to understand all people around me and in my society. But asking so many questions only leads to frustrating people, especially if they feel the end result is 'she is not going to embrace islam anyway so why am i bothering' I feel I am wasting peoples time and feel bad about that. But you are exactly right and making sense when you say what you have. I would prefer to understand the original instructions of Allah and try to completely ignore the secondary ones. Because they conflict way too much with my own perception of people, society and morals.

[Rachael]

Rehash of my questions:

1) Do you believe in a system that you made up and grabbed what pleases you from this religion here, and what pleases you from that religion there?

That sounds so pitiful that I didnt want to answer it LOL. I dont think I could exactly say I have a system of beliefs. More like an opinion on everything LOL. But I do have strong morals yes.


And as long as you follow what feels right, and stay away from what feels wrong, then you believe that you are on the right track?

No not just FEEL, but think through the consequences of actions I may do and how they affect everything and everyone and myself. Then judging on if they are not causing a negative result I conclude they are good.

2) Have you ever believed in something, only later on to decide that it is wrong to believe as such?

I have always questioned everything I believe in even as a small child I was annoying the crap out of the nuns at school. Usually got answered with the cane tho LMAO. So I guess I am a complete UNBELIEVER in everything in that context. However I do believe in God, because the arguement against him existing is not strong enough for me to believe otherwise. My concept of what God is however sways, depending on who I am talking to. If I am talking to spiritualists for instance, I will refer to him as the 'whole' the complete consciencness. When talking to you he is Allah and Christians God. etc. Allah is about fairness and justice and truth. God is about judgement, testing the faith and The Whole is about unity, love, - so you see, I perceieve God as all of these things and therefore find any type of philosophy or religion very hard to completely commit to. All of these faiths claim that they too believe god is all of these things, however they focus on those particular aspects of God that I outlined.


3) Have you ever held a belief that something was wrong, only later to feel the opposite?

I dont think i have ever believed in something whole heartedly and found i was wrong No. I have become less pushy about trying to make others believe it, but I have not compromised myself really no. I have dont things that go against what i believe, like the abortion, but not because i considered it right, but because I felt i had no choice. Do you understand what i mean? I was raised Catholic, with the 10 commandments and I still believe those commandments are what I consider good moral codes to live by. But not because I fear judgement, but because I believe they are good for me and my family.

4) A unique engineer that is an engineer of everything to such a degree that the engineer is unparalleled in every facet that the engineer is an engineer of, builds something. Who do you believe would know better than the engineer about what is built, without exception? (Bold part added in to the question, in this post.)

The Engineer :) [/QUOTE]

[Rachael]

In reference to choices, women due to the laws of multiple marriages, actually have a far greater choice to whom they marry as opposed to men. Once a sister is married, no other man can approach her. If a man is married, he still can be approached by other women. (a point Yusuf Estes made during his lectures)

In an Islamic state, a divorced women if not already re-married will be the responsibility of the government if the ex-husband is for any reason incabaple of supporting them.


thank you for letting me know who cares for her.

[Rachael]

The mother has the custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1155460533539). But she can never deny visits from the father unless there is some Islamic reason (for example he does stuff like gambling in his home).

If the child has reached puberty, it is the child's decision.

So if she remarries, who is responsible for the children of her first marriage financially? how does this work out particularly if a woman divorces 2-3 times and has 6 kids to 3 different men and is now married to a fourth?

Also what is the responsibilty of the step father to his step children emotionally and financially without affecting the bio fathers role?

What is expected of step children with regards to their step father?

What is the relationship expectations between the step father and the bio father in islam.

[Rachael]

Rachel, it seems you are basing everything on your innate feelings and opinions - which naturally, are subject to change over time, yeah? One cannot objectively look at a situation like that.

Well you may have to know me for some years before you jump to those conclusions, but no, generally as i have stated to isa, my moral codes have not changed much from when i was a small child. I have always been extremely idealistic, in fact my siblings and parents hate the way I think so much and dismiss all the time. they are a bunch of non-thinker LOL, its been a lonely road. Only my tolerance of others that have not had the same beliefs has increased. I am a much more tolerant and loving and caring person these days, because I do not wish to save everyone from themselves anymore :D I accept that people make mistakes and do what I have been taught is sin and come to believe is just a journey or path for that soul. I am less angry, less judgemental and less opinionated (if you can believe that LOL) than I used to be. But no my actual core beliefs in moral law has not changed.

What if in a year or so, you change your mind about polygamy, only an example here. If that's the case, does that suddenly make the Quran the word of God because Rachel thinks it is?


LMAO, then perhaps hubby might have his fantasy fulfilled! but its not that I have not questioned or imagined polygamy relationships in my life, however they do not agree with what i consider to be healthy relationships. I often joke however that I need a wife, meaning that i am domestically challenged and would love another woman in the house that loves doing all that stuff. I hate cooking, cleaning etc. some women love it. that is the only way polygamy could suit me. I dont claim to have an issue with people that want to have polygamy relationships, I am only having issue with outlawing polyandry, because i feel women are all different and they too should have the same option as the men. Or perhaps there are men that would prefer to share the burden of supporting a family with another man. there are different strokes for different folks and like you said there is Choice for polygamy and why get all huffy I am not, i am huffy cause there is a limit of choice based on gender bias.

Or perhaps it may have been the word of God all along but Rachel didn't know everything there is to know?

Do you think I have outruled this? Of course that is possible, Of course I could be wrong. In my set of thinking Sammer, I am allowed to be wrong, I am forgiven for being wrong, and my errors will be revealed to me lovingly, not with judgement.:)

Which seems more plausible?

anything can seem plausible and everything is possible.

I definately see what you are trying to say as I've heard this reasoning before but it's not difficult to work with it if you are open minded.

LMFAO, I was in a debate the other day and was accused of not being open minded with regards to thinking prostitution was degrading. I thought it is degrading and i was called judgemental and not being open minded.

What is with this open minded attitude people have today, how bloody open does my mind have to be, so open that only the wind blows through it and nothing else :shake: I say the opposite to people, remain closeminded until proven wrong. [/QUOTE]

[Rubaiyat]

No everyone is muslim and in fact muslim is the minority here in australia. without the muslim state there is no ability to enforce these laws, so women here in Australia muslim or not muslim are not protected by these islamic laws, as they cannot be enforced.

Once again, Islam is complete way of life. Do you think it is fair to take bits and chuncks from this complete solution and then complain why it's not working?


so you here in australia are relying on the nature of the men to be honorable in order for them to fulfil those laws.

True. That's why there is the Judgement day. This is not an Islamic state, so don't complain about a particular law does not suit because all the other necessary conditions cannot be fulfilled in this environment.


You used homosexuality in your arguement with Ratio and gender earlier on stating the number of homosexual males in NY and this increased the number of females. therefore you introduced that, and therefore I can also use lesbian as an example. And yes I do believe that theire would be 30 million lesbians world wide easily. so they are not alone, nor desire men and most certainly would have no desire to become muslim as she would feel her right to be a lesbian would be violated.

:eek: I NEVER used NY Homosexuality in my arguments (show reference). Please don't put worlds in my mouth.

Don't take the whole world, then take the Muslim world where the same gender ratio will still apply. So then this becomes our problem and this is our solution. What is your solution to any community that has this problem?

Homosexuality is not a right, just like there is no right to fornicate. If you want to discuss that issue, open up a new thread.


Ruba you talk so passionately and yet at the same time it sounds naive to me. You talk like it is possible to have a islamic state in every country and if we did, the place would be a paradise.

Eight centuries of Islamic civilization has shown how this system worked, how much it contributed to all of humanity and truly built a great empire. So what I am talking about is not a fantasy but reality that existed.


You dont take into account the freedom of people to choose not to be Islamic and they still deserve rights. Under Islam, only those that follow muslim law are treated well. the rest well are stoned etc.

Forgot about Spain and India so quickly where non-Muslims lived peacefully under Muslim rule for centuries? Show me where rights of non-Muslims are not protected. Which Islamic law is unfair? Open up a thread. Honestly, if you want to discuss each issue, open up a thread and clear your misconceptions.


This is not acceptable. Religion and Politics are not acceptable. It denys a person a free choice, and that is the one gift that has been given to us from God. Only he can judge us.

Back to the basics, Is God unable to provide a book of law that does not include political issue? Every society will have limits to free choice. Everyone is free with in the legal limits of that society. Islamic society is no different. The Quran specificly says, "There is no compultion in religion". Some how you are not willing to listen to that. In an Islamic society you will have the right to accept or reject Islam.


I dont mind the moral code of Islam on many points i have said that time and again, its when it becomes the controlling of a state that I start to disrespect it. it seems good but it causes oppression, such as whippings for adultery or even stoning and various other things like the chopping off the hand of theif. These are all things that many people cannot accept regardless of whether muslims think it is okay or not or see reason in.

I think the problem is, you consider God is only there for the spiritual aspect of life and nothing else. To us Muslim, God is in every aspect of life. That is the fundamental difference. We submit to him in our every action in every aspect. Not just when we feel like being spiritual. Also we don't consider us humans can ever come up with some law that is better than what is provided by God. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you put limit to God's ability, we don't.

Adultry is one of the worst crimes a couple can do that leads towards breaking a family, the fundamental unit of human society. You want that to do unpunished? How many marriages have been broken because of infidility? How many abortion (read that a cold blooded murder of an innocent child) has taken place becuase someone got pregnant unexpectedly and didn't want to take care of the child. Adultry, that leads into breaking families and causes murder of innocent children, should go unpunished? You are trying to compare harshness of Islamic punishment against the complete denyal of any crime done by abortion - I really don't have a case.

Finally, you don't have to accept it if you don't want to, you have a choice and no one can force you (even in an Islamic state).


And those that are not able to accept what you consider to be common sense are not necessarily unable to see the bigger picture of what you are trying to get across, but probably moreso reject it because there are parts to islam that go against what people naturally feel to be right or wrong.

If someone finds adultry and abortion is OK (not saying you do, but many does), then surely Islam is not for them. Both societies will have different outcomes. This thread is about why Islam allows polygamy and not polyandry, I'm pretty sure, by now you can see the reasons behind it and it's justification in an Islamic prospective. It is to solve a specific problem and not oppression.


Do I have more or less rights than your sister? Well that depends on the males in her family doesn it? If a sister chooses to not get her self educated because she wants to always be a homemaker and be cared for by the men, and that is her right, but she is sorely disappointed because either 1. all the men are in able to care for her due to finances, 2. they have all died before she is in need of them. 3. they are just bastards and dont want to fulfil their obligations.

I can have the same argument with you for any society. If someone BREAKS the law that is NOT the fault of the law. You have laws here not to be sexually assaulted. So if some idiot decides to assault you, are you going to take a swing at the law of the person? We are comparing rights and laws here, not how people break them.

So once again, "Do you enjoy similar rights as my sister?"

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but be honest to yourself. I'm sure you can see how Muslim women still enjoys more rights. Rights of women do not begin and end as a wife. She has rights as a mother, daugher and a sister as well. If you want to have an honest comparison, compare in all aspect. And please, compare rights and laws against each other, not how some people have broken it. Be fair.


in australia this can happen because we dont have the government forcing the men too. and therefore i think i am better off, because i am aware that I am on my own in life and I dont depend on anyone to pick me up when I am down. Whereas your women may forgo education or career advancement because they are deluded into believing they dont need to worry as they will always be cared for.

Deluded? How many women do you know? Which Muslim majority country have you visited and how many families have you met to make a comment like that? Yes, there are some men who will not fulfill their duties. It goes on here as well. So for western soceity the good examples justifies the law, but for Islamic laws you want to nit pick the bad apples? Thanks for being honest in your comparision.


It takes a lot of trust in the men to be able to be a woman in your religion. And in my life, except for my husband, men have proven time and time again how untrustworthy they are. how easy they avoid their responsibilties and many other negative things i could go on with.

Again, you will apply Islamic rules and regulations for women only and not for men. Honestly, I can't prove anything to you with that "pick the bits of Islam I like" mentality. Want to judge Islam, apply it universally. I don't know how many times I have to make it clear to you. Selective Islam does not work and it won't explain anything.


So if men can only do the right thing if under the fear of punishment or hellfire, more shame on them.

Great, so this is what we have now:
1. Men in Islam abide by the law in fear of Islam - Shame on Islam.
2. Men in any other society stick to their law out of fear of going to jail - nothing?

You really think we Muslim men are some heartless bastards who can't love the women (mother/sister/wife/daughter) if there is no fear? I don't know how long I can keep up with your insulting attidute towards us.


You want me to have faith that your men will do all these things willingly and by choice. But then you dont accept my beliefs that people are capalable of making good decisions without the Quran to guide them.

People can be pick majority of what is good and what is bad for them without Islam. But they may not realise what they consider good now may have harmful after effects in the long term. That is why secular laws always have ammendments. They try and fix things as they see the bad things happening around them. And we are often lead by our desiries that cloud the judgement.

I am not saying all Muslim men will do everything by coice. But Islamic law provides that structure, where a man will be forced to fullfill her duties if he choses not to. He will not be allowed to run away from his responsibilities.


that muslim men can do all these remarkable supportive things. But you fail to tell me how many men in your culture in the western environment actually do not. How many bad stories are there when they are letting their family down?

Muslims commit crimes, so does everyone else. So why are you finger pointing only at Islam here? And which part of "Islam is a complete way of life and selective Islam does not work" you are not willing to understand?


my mother had a saying "if its too good to be true, thats because it is"

good practical concepts but given the diversity of people and their individuality it will not work for everyone and those that it does not work for will be oppressed if enforced politically.

I got centuries of evidence to prove you wrong.

[Rubaiyat]

LMAO, then perhaps hubby might have his fantasy fulfilled!

Nope, that won't happen under Islamic system (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547196).

[Rubaiyat]

So if she remarries, who is responsible for the children of her first marriage financially? how does this work out particularly if a woman divorces 2-3 times and has 6 kids to 3 different men and is now married to a fourth?

Also what is the responsibilty of the step father to his step children emotionally and financially without affecting the bio fathers role?

What is expected of step children with regards to their step father?

What is the relationship expectations between the step father and the bio father in islam.

I'm sorry as I'm qualified enough to answer all the above questions, but hopefully the links below will answer some of it and you will get an idea.

Divorce & Child Custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543880&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar)
Child Custody After Mother's Remarriage (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1157365839455)
Effect of Mother's Marriage on Child Custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543520&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar)
Effect of Divorce on Marital Home and Child’s Custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543830&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar)

[Rubaiyat]

But! In Australia and western cultures, do you have men leaving in droves.

You mean men joining Islam or leaving Islam?


does the western islamic population have women outnumbering men by a larger ratio than islamic states.

I don't think we have the exact statistics on this one. Will have to check, but to be honest, I doubt if I'll find any.

[Rachael]

Ruba, you dont deserve to be feeling insulted by me, you have offered me so much patience and tolerance and taught me a lot and I apologise if in my ignorance I have insulted you.

Its not my intention to hurt you, its more what life has done to me to make me they way I am when communicating, I guess to be honest my distrust of men, from my own bad experiences of them, has warped my opinion of them. Hence anything that remotely resembles in my mind, oppression of women I find frightening and untrustworthy.

You are right, Islam can work if not lived selectively. I agree.

Its a matter perhaps of a little jealousy of others to be able to have faith in something without the fear of their trust being broken and being abandoned to pick up the peices of shattered hopes and dreams.

If you have always lived by Islam and have always practiced it purely and those around you have not let you down, (meaning 'you' generally) then that person may not perceive the emotions I do of mistrust in faith.

So thank you for letting me know i was insulting, and I apologise. Thank you for being such a patient teacher.

[Sammer]

Well you may have to know me for some years before you jump to those conclusions, but no, generally as i have stated to isa, my moral codes have not changed much from when i was a small child. I have always been extremely idealistic, in fact my siblings and parents hate the way I think so much and dismiss all the time. they are a bunch of non-thinker LOL, its been a lonely road.

This is my point. You took your standards from somewhere. Your family, your environment, somewhere. You're a product of your environment. That's just a fact I was trying to highlight.



But no my actual core beliefs in moral law has not changed.

They were formed somehow. You cannot deny this basic of human behaviour. That's the point.



LMAO, then perhaps hubby might have his fantasy fulfilled! but its not that I have not questioned or imagined polygamy relationships in my life, however they do not agree with what i consider to be healthy relationships.

Answer the question rachel :)

I asked you if your views on polygamy changed would that make the Quran the word of God. Because you're basing your opinions based on what you feel now. So what seems more plausible - that the Quran is indeed the word of God and you have not known everything there is to know about it or...that it's the word of God when you decide it is?:D


I dont claim to have an issue with people that want to have polygamy relationships, I am only having issue with outlawing polyandry, because i feel women are all different and they too should have the same option as the men.

I'm sorry, but you don't really beleive that. heheh. You already stated how silly and impractical it would be. Would you also advocate men wearing make-up? If a woman had multiple husbands, you don't see anything wrong with that? You know you do so why are you discussing a non issue?


Or perhaps there are men that would prefer to share the burden of supporting a family with another man. there are different strokes for different folks and like you said there is Choice for polygamy and why get all huffy I am not, i am huffy cause there is a limit of choice based on gender bias.

You do have a sense of humor I have to hand it to you. Where is the gender bias? The man has been given a responsibility. The woman has her responsibilities. Ok..and...?


LMFAO, I was in a debate the other day and was accused of not being open minded with regards to thinking prostitution was degrading. I thought it is degrading and i was called judgemental and not being open minded.

What is with this open minded attitude people have today, how bloody open does my mind have to be, so open that only the wind blows through it and nothing else I say the opposite to people, remain closeminded until proven wrong. [/QUOTE]

Hehe.

Well if you're closed minded, you won't be open to new ideas so you can consider them and become open minded :D

[Rachael]

Answer the question rachel

I asked you if your views on polygamy changed would that make the Quran the word of God. Because you're basing your opinions based on what you feel now. So what seems more plausible - that the Quran is indeed the word of God and you have not known everything there is to know about it or...that it's the word of God when you decide it is?

No not necessarily, it would just mean my opinion is changed, I dont claim what I believe to be absolute truth and completely accept that my opinions may be wrong Sammer. I will never claim to know I know the whole truth. I claim that the truth will be revealed to me over time.

Whether the Quran is the word of God or not I cannot honestly ever know, till i am standing in front of him and am given the answer I guess. I can only take the word of other people who believe it is the word of God, There is nothing to prove to me that it is except faith, and the fact it makes some common sense, and as Ruba has pointed out to me, has worked very successfully in history within societies. These are all very good reasons to prove that it is a good system to live by for those that follow it correctly and fully. That does not however prove to me it is infallible and the word of God needs to be infallible. I do not support the punishments of Islam, because I believe people make mistakes, serious ones, all the time and when living in such strict environments such as Islam or Christendom, social redemption is almost impossible, I feel for those people.


I used to believe the bible was the word of God in my childhood, because that is what i was told it was. But as an adult, I discovered it was not. So I am not about to go backwards and have faith that the Quran is the word of God, because i am told it is. IF IT IS, and it takes me my whole to realise it, then yes I would have missed out on much. If it isnt I have missed nothing. I am aware of that, but cannot risk believing something, once again, to be the word of God, on the basis that I am told it is.


I'm sorry, but you don't really beleive that. heheh. You already stated how silly and impractical it would be. Would you also advocate men wearing make-up? If a woman had multiple husbands, you don't see anything wrong with that? You know you do so why are you discussing a non issue?

You are right to a degree here, no I dont believe it, but only because I cannot feel that, i cannot perceive feeling like wanting two husbands. However I dont outrule that a woman could. As I am not the be all and end all of what makes up a woman, in actual fact I am probably quite a strange type of woman LOL so how would I really know what all women want, so why would i rule out options for them?
Men wearing make-up? I thought in Islam women could not even wear makeup!. How can I make a comment on that with regards to islam and polygamy etc... it would be a waste of both of our times.


You do have a sense of humor I have to hand it to you. Where is the gender bias? The man has been given a responsibility. The woman has her responsibilities. Ok..and...?

I have explained this several times now i dont know how to explain it any other way so we should perhaps just leave it that bit. we are getting no where but going in circles.


Hehe.

Well if you're closed minded, you won't be open to new ideas so you can consider them and become open minded

If I wasnt open minded I wouldnt have joined the forum Sammer. However I have been accussed of close mindedness with regards to issues of the oppositive extreme to morality and therefore have concluded that everyone thinks everyone else that does not understand or disagrees with them is 'close minded' My daughter is open minded. Do you know what that means to me? everything goes in there, rattles around and she only takes on what serves her. Open minded to me equals self serving. To be Islamic you must be close minded to a degree or you would go wayward to your law.

Open minded used to mean that you would listen and digest others opinions and respect their opinions and their own, without insult or degradation.

NOW it seems to mean, accept everything everyone wants to do that serves themself, and dont judge them for it or be called names such as politically incorrect, bigotted, narrow/closed minded or prejudiced. Get my interpretation problem LOL.

And with regards to the first and original meaning of open minded. Then yes I am trying to be very open minded on this forum and listen and digest and respect others opinions. even tho i end up upsetting lovely people, i dont intend to, just shows me I have a long way to go still.


I want to point out to everyone and especially Ruba, that has taken the time to talk to me on all these questions, how you have made a difference for me, since i joined here. Granted I may never convert, however today i was sitting in the eatery section of a supermarket and sat back and looked around me at everyone there. really looking at them. their clothes, the looks on their faces, and tried to imagine things like the women wearing hijabs and the men clothed appropriately. people not drugged out or looking hung over. no young single mothers looking poor, lonely and struggling. Men actually working to support something as virtuous as their family, what better reason to be hard working and a good person. I took in all the things that are valueable to Muslims and tried to image my society as what is taught in your Quran, and i liked the view of my imagination.

IF you guys can fully commit to islam and really live it, then I believe that you would live a blessed life.

My tainted heart however, and the cynicism that lies therein, can never imagine it being anything but a fantasy, and that saddened me.

So please know that you are making a difference, you have taught me a lot about your faith and for the first time I can say I do understand muslims much better, and when i saw a muslim couple today I felt their love for one another, instead of my fear of what I thought they represented.

You have all done well.

[Rubaiyat]

Ruba, you dont deserve to be feeling insulted by me, you have offered me so much patience and tolerance and taught me a lot and I apologise if in my ignorance I have insulted you.

Sorry for being carried away. It's the emotion kicking in.. lol I'm human you see, so I got my short comings.

Thanks for your comments and honestly I do appriciate your effort in contacting us (the Muslim community) in trying to understand us better, I sincerely do. It takes a great deal of tollerance for a non-Muslim to approach us with so much negative perceptions around.


Its not my intention to hurt you, its more what life has done to me to make me they way I am when communicating, I guess to be honest my distrust of men, from my own bad experiences of them, has warped my opinion of them. Hence anything that remotely resembles in my mind, oppression of women I find frightening and untrustworthy.

I didn't consider your bad experiences with men as being a reason for your mistrust towards men. Sorry about that. And it makes sence now, bad experiences lead to bad perceptions about men. Hopefully you are having a good experience with your husband and others you will come across.


You are right, Islam can work if not lived selectively. I agree.

Glad I could get that message across :)

I will be lying if I say that I don't care if you don't embrace Islam. I wish you do. However, I also recongnise that any Muslim can only give you the message but acceptance of that can only come from God. So I don't consider my (or anyone here) effort to explain things to you going in vain. If I can clear a misconception and help you better understand Islamic rulings, the reasons and effect of it - I'm more than happy.

To me it's also perfectly fine if you don't agree with some of the teachings of Islam. If you notice, I object when claims of unfairness is made because I believe this comes from the lack of understanding.


Its a matter perhaps of a little jealousy of others to be able to have faith in something without the fear of their trust being broken and being abandoned to pick up the peices of shattered hopes and dreams.

True, we have no fear of our trust being broken. On the contrary I can see your position, where your trust has been broken (catholic divorce issue etc). It is only natural, after that experience you will find it hard to trust another faith completely.

So take your time in exploring Islam and as you believe in God, ask for guidance. No matter what differences we have in our opinion on various matters, we have a common a ground - we believe in God. So ask Him for help and guidance.


If you have always lived by Islam and have always practiced it purely and those around you have not let you down, (meaning 'you' generally) then that person may not perceive the emotions I do of mistrust in faith.

So thank you for letting me know i was insulting, and I apologise. Thank you for being such a patient teacher.

No hard feelings at all :)

As I said, my emotions got the better of me. So sorry to come in hard on you. I hope you'll realise I'm just a human and I do have my short comings.

Don't let the thought of hurting someone by chance stop you from asking questions. I would rather have you ask a question and clear the misconception than live with it in fear of hurting someone.

I'm sure in the future we will have disagreements and have heated arguemnts (we are humans), but you are intelligent enough to patch things up :)

[Rachael]

I'm sorry as I'm qualified enough to answer all the above questions, but hopefully the links below will answer some of it and you will get an idea.

Divorce & Child Custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543880&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar)
Child Custody After Mother's Remarriage (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1157365839455)
Effect of Mother's Marriage on Child Custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543520&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar)
Effect of Divorce on Marital Home and Child’s Custody (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543830&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar)


Why I asked all those questions was to determine how much of a choice Divorce actually was for a woman in Islam, as I have been interpreting that women are freer in islam because they have an option for divorce without a price, or Not.

I read all those links and thank you for finding them for me. I particularly felt for that poor Muslimah who's late husband's family are after her kids :shake:

Anyway....

Divorce for a muslim woman could mean the loss of her children if she happens to fall in love with another man. I know that I would stay in an unhappy marriage and be abused if it meant i could keep my kids.

I see the sense also that they go back to the father as step fathers are often responsible for molesting their step children, so this is a good protection for them, and understandable.

It does make good logical sense all of it, but being a woman with children from a first marriage, now with a new husband, i could not bear the thought that my children would have gone back to their father. :(

However if their father was of good moral character, i guess this would not have been such a hard a thing, as I am not sure, but i am assuming under Islam he could not deny me seeing them.

And I have never failed to let my ex husband seeing his daughters, he actually has dinner in our house 5/7 days a week.

He is however morally questionable to me, as he is very OPEN MINDED lol. has gay friends, and mixes with people who take drugs etc. He is not a bad person, just very what people would consider these days as unprejudiced and open minded :rolleyes:

I cringe every time my children are with him on his every 2nd weekend. I know he would never deliberate harm the girls, but I worry that he 'undoes' everything I teach them.

So.... after rambling... I am assuming i and the step father would retain custody due to the fact that the bio father is not adhereing to law. IF we were muslim. Yes?

I am wondering how much in a country like Australia, if something like this got very ugly, how the court would go. Would they take into consideration the faith of the couple ie; islam and follow through with what the justice that is considered in Islam in that case.

Or would they be not allowed to consider that as freedom of religion or lack thereof would be not allowing the bio dad his rights. :confused:

[Rachael]

I'm sure in the future we will have disagreements and have heated arguemnts (we are humans), but you are intelligent enough to patch things up

:thumbsup: excellent, I am sure if nothing else RUBA you and I will become very experienced in cross culture communication LOL. And that can only be a good thing.

[Rachael]

You mean men joining Islam or leaving Islam?



I don't think we have the exact statistics on this one. Will have to check, but to be honest, I doubt if I'll find any.


I mean muslim men in the west leaving Islam. I would imagine young muslim men being raised being taught all these responsibilities looking at their non-muslim counterparts and feeling a bit envious of their lack of responsibilties and their more free society. It would take considerable faith in a young man to stay with Islam in the west. Considering the temptations outside of it.

It is the same reason young people are leaving the catholic church in droves over the last 2 decades. it is much easier to not belong to an organised relgion than to belong to it.


It is actually a very important statistic for non-muslim women considering conversion to know. If they feel they would like to join islam for the reasons of what is taught in it regarding women, and they want that, and find no available men, then only polygamy would be available to them. They really should be aware of that before converting I feel.

[Sammer]

I used to believe the bible was the word of God in my childhood, because that is what i was told it was. But as an adult, I discovered it was not. So I am not about to go backwards and have faith that the Quran is the word of God, because i am told it is. IF IT IS, and it takes me my whole to realise it, then yes I would have missed out on much. If it isnt I have missed nothing. I am aware of that, but cannot risk believing something, once again, to be the word of God, on the basis that I am told it is.

You don't accept things because you are told, you research and ponder over matters yourself. Accepting blindly is not genuine as you know. IF IT IS, you may think you have not missed out on much. But then again, you admit to not having absolute knowledge so the chance of not knowing a lot about it is pretty high. Don't write things off simply because you had a bad experience earlier.




You are right to a degree here, no I dont believe it, but only because I cannot feel that, i cannot perceive feeling like wanting two husbands. However I dont outrule that a woman could. As I am not the be all and end all of what makes up a woman, in actual fact I am probably quite a strange type of woman LOL so how would I really know what all women want, so why would i rule out options for them?

Islamic law is for the betterment of society as a whole and not the necesarrily the individual. So while there may be weird women out there with the desire for multiple husbands, this is not the majority. The rule applies to all of course. There is no sexual bias here at all, it's the most practical system. Mutliple husbands is absurd.




Men wearing make-up? I thought in Islam women could not even wear makeup!. How can I make a comment on that with regards to islam and polygamy etc... it would be a waste of both of our times.

Women can wear makeup for their husbands, who said they can't? This is not the issue. I was giivng an example of the futile argument that was presented. Women having mutliple husbands is disastrous, but the reverse is not the case.



I have explained this several times now i dont know how to explain it any other way so we should perhaps just leave it that bit. we are getting no where but going in circles.

Well if you cannot explain it, maybe it's not a problem. Or you are trying to make it into one when it's not. If it really is that clear, everyone here would see it but, they don't.


If I wasnt open minded I wouldnt have joined the forum Sammer. However I have been accussed of close mindedness with regards to issues of the oppositive extreme to morality and therefore have concluded that everyone thinks everyone else that does not understand or disagrees with them is 'close minded' My daughter is open minded. Do you know what that means to me? everything goes in there, rattles around and she only takes on what serves her. Open minded to me equals self serving. To be Islamic you must be close minded to a degree or you would go wayward to your law.

That's a false opinion as Islam encourages people to question. There are chapters and verses in the Quran that start with questions. Questioning doesn't mean closed minded. The closed minded person I feel is one that rules out considering something based on blind following and not understanding.

"Because that's the way it is!" - statements like that.

Anyway as I repeatedly mentioned, you're free to beleive what you like.

[Sammer]

So if she remarries, who is responsible for the children of her first marriage financially? how does this work out particularly if a woman divorces 2-3 times and has 6 kids to 3 different men and is now married to a fourth?

Also what is the responsibilty of the step father to his step children emotionally and financially without affecting the bio fathers role?

What is expected of step children with regards to their step father?

What is the relationship expectations between the step father and the bio father in islam.

Each father is responsible for their child financially.

So if she has 6 kids to three different men, each man is responsible for their child/ren.

The majority opinion say custody transfers to the biological father should the mother re-marry. Of course the father must be able to have them and be of sound mind and character. And you have stated reasons highlighting the wisdom of such a law.

The relationship between the current husband and the woman's ex is the same between any two Muslims - it should be based on the Islamic framework.

[Rubaiyat]

So.... after rambling... I am assuming i and the step father would retain custody due to the fact that the bio father is not adhereing to law. IF we were muslim. Yes?

I'm pretty sure none of the parents can be denied visits to their children.


I am wondering how much in a country like Australia, if something like this got very ugly, how the court would go. Would they take into consideration the faith of the couple ie; islam and follow through with what the justice that is considered in Islam in that case.

Or would they be not allowed to consider that as freedom of religion or lack thereof would be not allowing the bio dad his rights. :confused:

Issues like these are managed by the Islamic family court and taken one case at a time as all have different circumstances. But bottom line comes down to the benefit on the child. Personally I like this bit from here (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543880&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar):
As for the custody of children, we see that daughters should remain with their mother until they get married. As for male kids, they should remain with their mother until they reach the age of puberty, and then shifted to their father in order to get acquainted with the traits of manhood.

I guess the court would take the faith into consideration. So if the father happens to be a bad Muslim, the court will grant custody to the mother. I'm really not an expert on this, so unfortunately can't answer most of the question.

[Rubaiyat]

I mean muslim men in the west leaving Islam. I would imagine young muslim men being raised being taught all these responsibilities looking at their non-muslim counterparts and feeling a bit envious of their lack of responsibilties and their more free society. It would take considerable faith in a young man to stay with Islam in the west. Considering the temptations outside of it.

Just as there are guys who are drifting away from Islam there are also those who are coming close to Islam. Take me for example. My family is not the most practising family and I wasn't a pactising Muslim myself until I came to Australia. For me it all changed after September 11, 2001 when I got bombarded by questions from my non-Muslim friends and I was forced to question my faith. So I had to dig deep and the question everything. The more I questioned, the more I understood the wisdom behind it. So all the questions that you ask, is pretty much like a recap for me :) This has got me closer to Islam. I'm still far from perfect, but trying to get there. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to learn from other fellow Muslims.

By getting close to Islam, I do realise that I have taken on added responsibility than I would have not taken under the normal secular law. But not taking on the responsibilities that I clearly understand that I should undertake sounds wrong to me. I possibly can't look into a person's eyes, say that I love her and purposely brush aside her rights over me. Add to that the tought of Judgement Day and answering my deeds.

As for temptations, oh yeah, tell me about it. As a single man, it is HARD (I'll skip the details lol). But being around with a bunch of good friends help. I have Muslim and non-Muslim friends (from uni). Fortunately my non-Muslim friends understand me well and don't push me to have a beer or join them into clubbing. They are very nice in that respect.


It is the same reason young people are leaving the catholic church in droves over the last 2 decades. it is much easier to not belong to an organised relgion than to belong to it.

Personally the guys whom I came across moving away from Islam, the reason is never that Islam makes no sense to them, but rather they don't want to do anything with religion and follow their desires.


It is actually a very important statistic for non-muslim women considering conversion to know. If they feel they would like to join islam for the reasons of what is taught in it regarding women, and they want that, and find no available men, then only polygamy would be available to them. They really should be aware of that before converting I feel.

I guess a Muslimah revert will be able to answer that best.

[Rachael]

You don't accept things because you are told, you research and ponder over matters yourself. Accepting blindly is not genuine as you know. IF IT IS, you may think you have not missed out on much. But then again, you admit to not having absolute knowledge so the chance of not knowing a lot about it is pretty high. Don't write things off simply because you had a bad experience earlier.


I have not written anything off, nor written anything in. I am purely learning, and refuse to commit to any religion at this point. Dont take it as a personal insult to islam, I feel the same about every religion at this stage in my life.




Islamic law is for the betterment of society as a whole and not the necesarrily the individual. So while there may be weird women out there with the desire for multiple husbands, this is not the majority. The rule applies to all of course. There is no sexual bias here at all, it's the most practical system. Mutliple husbands is absurd.

I would not call it absurb, my arguement for it is sound enough for me, you have not convinced me it is not..



Women can wear makeup for their husbands, who said they can't? This is not the issue. I was giivng an example of the futile argument that was presented. Women having mutliple husbands is disastrous, but the reverse is not the case.


you have not proven to me why it would be disastrous

Well if you cannot explain it, maybe it's not a problem. Or you are trying to make it into one when it's not. If it really is that clear, everyone here would see it but, they don't.

i did explain it, however you failed to understand my point. Some may have worked out what my arguement was about. I failed to reach you in explaining it, that does not mean I didnt not explain it. You cannot speak for everyone here, as not everyone here has commented in this thread. Once again, I am not saying I think Polygamy is wrong, my arguement is that Women are not given a choice with regards to 2 husbands but men are given a choice to 2 wives. I believe a woman should have the choice as well. For some people it may work, how would anyone know as it has never been trialled. If it has please quote a case. You judge a situation that you have never experienced or seen or known anyone that has experienced it. All you can argue is that it is law and gods word and I will respect that. But you cannot argue me down, outside islam, because what I as a democratic woman citizen says women are equal in rights, and if not should fight for those rights, you cannot argue on that level and therefore like I said we were just going in circles, because you cannot satisfy me as to reasons why it should not be allowed, given my upbringnig and social attitude, however i am willing to accept your opinions okay?



That's a false opinion as Islam encourages people to question. There are chapters and verses in the Quran that start with questions. Questioning doesn't mean closed minded. The closed minded person I feel is one that rules out considering something based on blind following and not understanding.

"Because that's the way it is!" - statements like that.

Anyway as I repeatedly mentioned, you're free to beleive what you like

then i still misunderstand islam obviously. If you are going to dismiss my reasons why polyandry are not acceptable, then i could say you are being closeminded, however I say he is just professing his faith and trusts it whole heartedly. In western culture this type of marital arrangement would be considered amusing rather than immoral - do you see? I and many other people who still cling to what they have learnt in religion to be 'proper and good' are considered closed minded. Because we do not sway to majority way of thinking. There is nothing wrong with that. My mind is closed to accepting things that i consider morally challenging and I wont entertain debating on those subjects normally. Because i know it would be a waste of mine and their time.

[Rachael]

As for the custody of children, we see that daughters should remain with their mother until they get married. As for male kids, they should remain with their mother until they reach the age of puberty, and then shifted to their father in order to get acquainted with the traits of manhood.

actually this one impressed me too. it makes absolutely natural sense. i have one son and 3 daughters and am fully aware of how much my boy needs his dad. i could never imagine them being apart.

[Rachael]

Just as there are guys who are drifting away from Islam there are also those who are coming close to Islam. Take me for example. My family is not the most practising family and I wasn't a pactising Muslim myself until I came to Australia. For me it all changed after September 11, 2001 when I got bombarded by questions from my non-Muslim friends and I was forced to question my faith. So I had to dig deep and the question everything. The more I questioned, the more I understood the wisdom behind it. So all the questions that you ask, is pretty much like a recap for me :) This has got me closer to Islam. I'm still far from perfect, but trying to get there. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to learn from other fellow Muslims.

By getting close to Islam, I do realise that I have taken on added responsibility than I would have not taken under the normal secular law. But not taking on the responsibilities that I clearly understand that I should undertake sounds wrong to me. I possibly can't look into a person's eyes, say that I love her and purposely brush aside her rights over me. Add to that the tought of Judgement Day and answering my deeds.

As for temptations, oh yeah, tell me about it. As a single man, it is HARD (I'll skip the details lol). But being around with a bunch of good friends help. I have Muslim and non-Muslim friends (from uni). Fortunately my non-Muslim friends understand me well and don't push me to have a beer or join them into clubbing. They are very nice in that respect.



Personally the guys whom I came across moving away from Islam, the reason is never that Islam makes no sense to them, but rather they don't want to do anything with religion and follow their desires.



I guess a Muslimah revert will be able to answer that best.

Well for a guy that is 'recapping' you are very well versed and seem to have a deep committment and devotion. Your time away from Islam and 'mixing' has given you a good ability to be patient with non-muslims and you will probably find yourself in the future taking on some type of role of educating I feel. You do seem to have a good nature for that role.

You should make a great dad and hubby one day considering you are willing to embrace that responsibility, that woman will be one lucky lady, i wish you the best in finding one that will reciprocate with such commitment..

[Sammer]

I would not call it absurb, my arguement for it is sound enough for me, you have not convinced me it is not..you have not proven to me why it would be disastrous

Men do not share a family Rachel. It's not in the nature of a man to share his wife and kids with another man. I kind of thought that would have been an obvious one. You cannot think of just one more?


i did explain it, however you failed to understand my point. Some may have worked out what my arguement was about. I failed to reach you in explaining it, that does not mean I didnt not explain it. You cannot speak for everyone here, as not everyone here has commented in this thread.

I don't think you explained it. You have repeatedly put in your emotion and subjective opinion on the matter, never with any substantiating evidence. And you keep changing your position. You admit the Quran may be the word of God, you acknowledge a lot of things and in the end you say it's against your morals. You ought to be more consistent.



Once again, I am not saying I think Polygamy is wrong, my arguement is that Women are not given a choice with regards to 2 husbands but men are given a choice to 2 wives. I believe a woman should have the choice as well.

Sorry, how cna you say that when you are not even convinced of the same argument? Two husbands? LOL! Surely, you're not seriously trying to make a case here?



For some people it may work, how would anyone know as it has never been trialled. If it has please quote a case. You judge a situation that you have never experienced or seen or known anyone that has experienced it. All you can argue is that it is law and gods word and I will respect that. But you cannot argue me down, outside islam, because what I as a democratic woman citizen says women are equal in rights, and if not should fight for those rights, you cannot argue on that level and therefore like I said we were just going in circles, because you cannot satisfy me as to reasons why it should not be allowed, given my upbringnig and social attitude, however i am willing to accept your opinions okay?

Ok, that was the longest sentence I've ever read in my life. I've argued you on all fronts and you keep running around in circles Rachel. And don't come across as only a western woman knows what a democracy is. Thats ridiculous and false. You are suggesting to trial something out of pure fantasy and curiosity. Would you support also trialling having 2 fathers and two mothers perhaps? I'm sure if we try hard enough, we can manage to perhaps create hybrids where we can make everyone happy.

You are going down your own path based purely on whims and desires, nothing more. That's why it's never seen the light of day.



then i still misunderstand islam obviously. If you are going to dismiss my reasons why polyandry are not acceptable, then i could say you are being closeminded, however I say he is just professing his faith and trusts it whole heartedly. In western culture this type of marital arrangement would be considered amusing rather than immoral - do you see?

I've engaged your arguments and shown why it's all based on your pure fantasy. It's against the human nature to have two leaders in a family. Why not campaign for two presidents of a country also. And two bosses at work. You need to accept the world doesn't revolve around your whims.

[Rachael]

No Sammer it is against your nature and it is against Islam.. you cannot talk for every other man in the world, And I am honestly rather happy to stop debating with you, as I am not wanting to argue with you any more, It is not up to me to prove to you why Polyandry should be a choice that women should be entitled to have, just as men are entitled to the choice of polyandry, but it is your job to prove to me why it is fair that a woman is not entitled the same choices as men, i am not argueing for polyandry Sammer, i am arguing for equality in your perception that both men and women are intellectually just as capable of making choices for their own lives and do not require different laws imposed on them in the name of 'for their own good', and I would also like to mention that now you have just read an even bigger sentence and therefore you can now really say, that you have read the biggest sentense in the world :smack:, i hate people picking on my grammer and so therefore just to be childish and have my revenge i will consequently purposely drive you insane with absolutely non stop sentences :hooray:

[Sammer]

No Sammer it is against your nature and it is against Islam.. you cannot talk for every other man in the world, And I am honestly rather happy to stop debating with you, as I am not wanting to argue with you any more,

You are not making sense. You are trying to argue for somehting you don;t even beleive in. That's why there is little coherence in your line of argument. it is against human nature, its even against animal nature for two males to have a female LOL.


It is not up to me to prove to you why Polyandry should be a choice that women should be entitled to have, just as men are entitled to the choice of polyandry, but it is your job to prove to me why it is fair that a woman is not entitled the same choices as men,

Why do you want me to prove to you something you are not convinced of? :smack: What purpose is it serving? Why should polyandry be a choice women should have when it has never been practiced by any society? Is this the world of rachel or reality? C'mon now, you need to be real. It's not about choice at all.



i am not argueing for polyandry Sammer, i am arguing for equality in your perception that both men and women are intellectually just as capable of making choices for their own lives and do not require different laws imposed on them in the name of 'for their own good',

And this is where you just cannot fathom the concept. These laws are not imposed. I have said that to you twice now and it seems you do not want to get this idea out of your mind. Nothing is imposed. And again, you are basing your entire line of argument on "what i think" which changes with time like I proved earlier.

[your sister]

I have explained before I am not interested into converting but in understanding the faith. To help me be tolerant and give me a perspective on the muslim culture. I have until joining here known nothing of it and only heard people talking badly about it. so I wanted to find for myself what the truth is.

I would make a lousy muslim woman LMAO.

wallahi i say this from my heart , i think if u ever possibly inshALLAH became a sister in islam that u would be a very dedicated muslima

[Rachael]

well if you want to discuss this at an animal level perhaps i should suggest women should eat her young like rabbits and that once we have conceived perhaps we should devour our mates like insects!

Sammer you are arguing for the sake of arguing because you love a good debate. Not because your argument is right.

I dont have to believe in something to defend it. Other people believing in something is good enough for me to defend it.

I am not defending Polyandry I am defending the right for women to make choices about their own life without men imposing their laws on them. Men and women are judged equally in the eyes of God and therefore not to have the same choices in their life does not compute.

murder and theft is practiced in every society does that mean it is acceptable. basing your arguement on that it is not in any known society is not a theological debate but a social one.

and for your information polyandry existed in tibet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry_in_Tibet which rules out your theory that man cannot in fact naturally share a wife. the fact is history shows they have

So am i getting this right? :rolleyes: If nothing is imposed in Islam than a woman can in fact have more than one husband ?????

[isa]

Its not my intention to hurt you, its more what life has done to me to make me they way I am when communicating, I guess to be honest my distrust of men, from my own bad experiences of them, has warped my opinion of them. Hence anything that remotely resembles in my mind, oppression of women I find frightening and untrustworthy.You've nipped it in the bud there Rachael.

In your mind...

That remotely resembles...

Hmmm... OK, I guess you never said you were objective.

But being subjective will not necessarily get you anywhere either :)

Also, thank you Rachael for answering my previous questions :)

[Sammer]

well if you want to discuss this at an animal level perhaps i should suggest women should eat her young like rabbits and that once we have conceived perhaps we should devour our mates like insects!

Are you being closed minded now? People should have the choice if they want to eat their own young, right? That's your line of argument all along. What you see as moral or not should go. As you can see, it's not quite reasonable.



Sammer you are arguing for the sake of arguing because you love a good debate. Not because your argument is right. I dont have to believe in something to defend it. Other people believing in something is good enough for me to defend it.

You admitted you don't beleive in it. You refuse to tell me why you insist on it. I keep repeating to you its an option not enforced. Your only argument is based on total fantasy. No society Muslim or non-Muslim is doing what you're advocating. What does that tell you?


I am not defending Polyandry I am defending the right for women to make choices about their own life without men imposing their laws on them.

In case you missed it, here it is again

No laws are imposed

Why do you keep saying this to yourself? And who are you to defending the right of women to make choices about their own life? You speak for all women? You do realize the majority of women find your reasoning absurd, right? No, you speak for yourself only.


Men and women are judged equally in the eyes of God and therefore not to have the same choices in their life does not compute.

Perhaps I can put it another way.

Will you advocate your husband being a woman? If no, WHY NOT? If he comes to you and says 'Honey, I am getting a sex change tomorrow" will you support his right to do that?


murder and theft is practiced in every society does that mean it is acceptable. basing your arguement on that it is not in any known society is not a theological debate but a social one.

So is eating and drinking and driving a car and talking and laughing and going to the bathroom. Where are you going with this?


and for your information polyandry existed in tibet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry_in_Tibet which rules out your theory that man cannot in fact naturally share a wife. the fact is history shows they have

This is inaccurate since you are basing it on a very very specific case that happened way back and not representative of a society as a whole. And that was my argument.



So am i getting this right? If nothing is imposed in Islam than a woman can in fact have more than one husband ?????

Tell me, why can't I rob a bank? I am being imposed on!

Think Rachel.

[Sammer]

Also, this is from the same source you quoted me:

"The form of polyandry in which two (or more) brothers marry the same woman is known as fraternal polyandry, and it is believed by many anthropologists to be the most frequently encountered form."

It also refers to blood brothers (from the same mother) sharing a woman. Are you advocating this?

Do you advocate or support a woman to do this?


You are forgetting it's not a matter of choice for the woman, it's still the men that choose which women they will share :D

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

This is getting a bit tiresome.


صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

[Sammer]

I'm outta here.

[Rubaiyat]

Once again, I am not saying I think Polygamy is wrong, my arguement is that Women are not given a choice with regards to 2 husbands but men are given a choice to 2 wives. I believe a woman should have the choice as well. For some people it may work, how would anyone know as it has never been trialled. If it has please quote a case.

I'll try to explain it with the following example and let me know if this clears things for you.

Before you begin reading; few things to keep in mind:
1. With Islamic ruling, you have to take it as a whole. Selective Islam won't work.
2. Men and women are equal, but have different rights over each other. Just like women have rights over men to be provided for, men has rights over women that she should take care of the marital home.
3. In Islam, mothers and fathers have specific role. Islam realises that men are women are genetically different and we also think differently. Men are physically stronger but not as patitent and soft heared as their female counterpart. Each is better than the other in certain task. Islam does not say "Man = Woman". We are equal in spirituality, education and value, but there are differences and denying that is being foolish.
4. Yes, there are exceptions where a man can be better in a woman's job or a woman is stronger than most men, but social rules are set keeping the majority in mind.
5. The core unit that must be protected at all cost is Family. Anything that remotely has a chance of hurting the family unit, no matter how insignificant, is rejected.
6. With respect to Polyandry, you must apply the same rule that applies to Polygamy.
7. All solutions must be practical and feasible to apply globally.

Make sure you understand the above before you read below.

Now lets take up an example of two families practising Polygamy and Polyandry respectively.

Family practising Polygamy:
1. Each wife has a seperate house. It is requirement that the husband provide seperate dwelling for each wife of equal value and facilities.
2. The husband fullfills his rights by providing for both households.
3. Just like any organisation has a figure head, family must have a figure head as well. A husband is capable of fullfilling this role for both his families.
4. When a mother is in the later stage on her pregnancy and times spending time to recover from birth and labour, her co-wives are there to look after the husband's need.
5. A woman does not have to queue up to have a baby.

Contrast the above with the family practising Polyandry:
1. Each husband must have his own dwelling.
2. The wife must fillfill her duties of looking after for both homes simultaneously. Think of the chores in the morning when both has to leave and both returns from work at the same time. The kids of each husband has to live in the home of their respective fathers. How on earth will a mother look after multiple kids simultaneously living in two different homes?
3. Who is the figure head of this combined family? Which man takes this role (it is always the responsibility of men to take the lead)? You can't have both as there is no organisation or Government that has two heads (CEO or head of state).
4. When a mother is in the later stage on her pregnancy and times spending time to recover from birth and labour, all other husband's must wait their turn until she is back to normal.
5. Husbands must queue up to have their own child. Who goes first? Is it really a preactical scenario? Should they always resort to IVF treament to ensure the right father's sperm fertilises the egg? IVF is not even perfect today.

On top of all that, take into consideration that Polygamy was first introduced to solve a social crisis. That was the purpose, to protect the women. Unless you forcefully create a situation by practising female infanticide, no where in human history we came across a situation that males outnumbered females. The situation holds true even today.

Identification of the child:
Yes, we have genetical identification today. But honestly, is that practical and feasible? We have billions of people living under poverty. They are having a hard time putting two meals on the table and a roof over their head. Should we ask them to undergo DNA testing to indentify their child? How many even have access to this technology? I come from Bangladesh, where 80% of the people live below poverty line. There is just ONE clinic in the entire country of 150 million that has facilities for IVF treament and DNA testing. This clinic is only accessible by the very rich of the country, who can dish out thousands of dollars for the treatment. Is it really feasible? Now, if Polyandry is made permissible and people is those country begin to practise it, can you imagine the conflict it will create? Denying a child the right to know his/her identification is a crime in my opinion. Every child has the right to know who their biological parents are. Please don't advocate Polyandry for one place and forbid in other. That's discrimination. The ruling has to be global (see rule 7 above).

Even if you make IVF and DNA testing as readily available and cheap like pregnancy testing in the distant future, it is still not a global solution because of poverty. When people can't even earn enough money to eat, are you advocating a system that will require them to dish out their weekly (monthly in many places) income and starve for the identification of their child?

Is this really a practical solution when Polyandry does not even solve any social problem to begin with? If anything, it only adds a lot of problems.

If you look at rights as "Man = Woman" (which western societies do), like "what is good for the goose is also good for the gander", Islam won't work. Islam recognises the obvious differences between a man and woman and provides a solution keeping that in mind. You have seen how women in a Islamic world has more rights than any other society (financial and social security). Should we Muslim men whinge about why my adult sisters welfare is my resposibility if she is unmarried? A western man is free from those responsibilities. It is a give and take. Muslim men can also argue, why can't he claim her wife's income or inheritance to be used for looking after their children? They are her kids too! But we cannot do that.

Limits, restrictions, rights and privileges apply to both men and women. They just differ a little depending on the very differences that exist between them.

[cheesegirl]

^good post mashaallah.

Would also like to add, what about all the psychological hardship the wife and multiple husbands would have to go through, waiting 9 months to figure out who the father is?:eek:

[Rachael]

Well fair enough Ruba, that explains very well why Polyandry is not feasible.

Personally, however, I feel polyagmy is just a elaborate form of adultery and therefore monogamy is the only true and faithful and sacred marriage.

However I do appreciate you all trying to help me come to terms with any sense of it being a worthwhile institution, but for me it doesnt. It just does not seem right.

A man should be able to control his sexual function to wait for his wife to recover from childbirth and menstruation, without feeling that he needs his sexual desires fulfilled by another woman - THAT is not a valid reason for polygamy and negates all the reasons that could make it a good idea.

If my husband felt that way, i would be so angry. I am suffering through pregnancy and labour and recovering and he is off with the other wife getting his desires fed...... :shake:

the fact that some men think they can actually put their sexual appetite down as something superior to the marriage has me upset because if you claim to be a religious man and a family man, that should not be an option to you.

[dijma]

Aphrodite could argue that we could have Polygamy and Polyandry simultaneously, now wouldnt that be interesting.

Keep in mind that one of the main goals of Islamic Law is the preservation of the family

[Rachael]

Aphrodite could argue that we could have Polygamy and Polyandry simultaneously, now wouldnt that be interesting.

Keep in mind that one of the main goals of Islamic Law is the preservation of the family


LOL that is what i WAS argueing...

[cheesegirl]

Well fair enough Ruba, that explains very well why Polyandry is not feasible.

I really like you, you know when how to admit when you have been convinced about something.

Keep it up.:thumbsup:

Oh, and you know that women have the right to specify a no-polygamy clause in the marriage contract don't you? So if you don't like it, you don't have to do it.

[your sister]

:popcorn: popcorn anyone:D

[S I M B A]

soooooooooo not true:rolleyes:

ssshhhheeeeshh dont tell any one :smack:
and give me some popcorn sis :p

[dijma]

LOL that is what i WAS argueing...

wow, im not sure if this ever existed even in the most primitive of men. Come to think of it, im not sure if many developed species practice this.

[your sister]

i seen doccos on certain tribes where the woman have the upper hand over the tribe ect get this In AFRICA!! so its like the woman run the parliment in the tribes ect. NOW tell me aphro phro mo phro how many goverments in our "civilised"western societies would let the woman run the show?huh huuuuuuuh huuuuuuuuuuh huh huh !!??? what about a certain lady president in da pakistan with all those males yes males MUSLIM males may i adds!!how bout indonesia? so how bout that huuuuuuuuuh huh huh uh??!! thats right folks u saw it first "NOT in the west":D
anyway the point is even in these societies where they uphold woman as leaders and decision makers no one is down with polyandry, so even when people have a free choice no one is doing it. Its not within our nature :shake:

[Rachael]

wow, im not sure if this ever existed even in the most primitive of men. Come to think of it, im not sure if many developed species practice this.

it has in Tibet. Anywhere where female infantcide has been you would most likely have found Polyandry. And when you consider that female infantcide was very common in MANY cultures throughout history, I dont think it was that uncommon really.

Men CANNOT argue therefore that it goes against the male nature, as it is proven that is does not, regardless of the reason being infantcide, they still can be involved in Polyandry.

I have issues with it being a forced law, rather than a recommendation etc.

If you consider that those societies that had infantcide were probably led my men also, MEN forcing mothers to kill their own children. Then I have to ask myself what good do Male imposed rules do for ANY Society. Women dont base their choices and decisions on sex (generally) we base our choices on our children, family. So polyandry would in fact be hardly existent even if MEN did not impose it as a law with the punishments of doing so being death.

[Rachael]

i seen doccos on certain tribes where the woman have the upper hand over the tribe ect get this In AFRICA!! so its like the woman run the parliment in the tribes ect. NOW tell me aphro phro mo phro how many goverments in our "civilised"western societies would let the woman run the show?huh huuuuuuuh huuuuuuuuuuh huh huh !!??? what about a certain lady president in da pakistan with all those males yes males MUSLIM males may i adds!!how bout indonesia? so how bout that huuuuuuuuuh huh huh uh??!! thats right folks u saw it first "NOT in the west":D
anyway the point is even in these societies where they uphold woman as leaders and decision makers no one is down with polyandry, so even when people have a free choice no one is doing it. Its not within our nature :shake:

To stay in Rule in countries where you are voted in and not placed there by military force and are a dictator, you only remain in the position of power because the people want you there. NO sensible politician is going to go against the desires of the People or majority of advisors (which would be mostly men) around them.

Nor as I have a said before do I wish for Polyandry to be an option, it doesnt interest me,I could live with out it. However its the enforcement of the law on women and the freedom of the choice on men that I object to.

Women in Islam are just as capable of making the right moral choices as men, without the imposing of laws upon them.

Hence I feel that monogamy was probably enforced in the Christian law. They saw that it was only fair and decent for both sexes to adhere to the same sexual moral laws with regards to marriage.

[Rubaiyat]

I have issues with it being a forced law, rather than a recommendation etc.

If you consider that those societies that had infantcide were probably led my men also, MEN forcing mothers to kill their own children. Then I have to ask myself what good do Male imposed rules do for ANY Society. Women dont base their choices and decisions on sex (generally) we base our choices on our children, family. So polyandry would in fact be hardly existent even if MEN did not impose it as a law with the punishments of doing so being death.

I'm sure you realise by now that Islamic rules work when you apply it as a whole. Therefore with in the framework of an Islamic society, there is abosolutely no chance of female infanticide as that is considered one of the worst crimes. History will show you how Islam uprooted this evil from all of Arabia where this was a very common practice. Islam distroyed this male dominated evil practice.

Therefore in an Islamic society:
1. Polygamy can solve a specific social problem that evolves naturally.
2. Polygamy is not enforced, rather a provision available to solve the gender ratio problem when the need occurs.

Polyandry on the other hand is not required to solve ANY problems that will occur naturally with in an Islamic society.

The only argument that you have here is that you feel it should be available as an option even though there is no requirement. Just because it's there for men, women should have it. As I explained earlier, Man = Woman is not how Islam works. If you look at it from an Islamic prospective, Polygamy was not introduced for a man's pleasure, but as a provision to protect women. It was introduced keeping the welfare of women in mind. The beneficiary of this arrangement is the women who would otherwise be left alone without a life partner.

As you still consider that there should be a provision for Polyandry, just for the heck of it, even though there is no need and will only bring in complications, I guess we should just leave it here.

I'm pretty sure, by now you uderstand the Islamic stand behind this issue of polygamy/polyandry and realise that it is not about discrimination as you thought earlier. So as far as I'm concerned, we managed to get the message across to you. You don't have to agree if you don't feel it is right. Islam then is not for you, as it doesn't cater for what an individual feels, but it is based on what is best for the collective humanity.

[Rachael]

yes I do understand the perspective and respect that the prophet had the best intentions in mind when he made the rules for that time in history and the social setting of the time.

He (Mohummed) had more than 4 wives however, regardless of the reasons for breaking his own rule, and therefore has betrayed his own law. from some passages I read his wife actually went hungry, so he could not provide for them either and they only lived on dates. so that is also breaking the rules of having polygamy in order to provide for all women. as he did not provide well during those times.

there are just too many contradictions between the prophets own behaviour and the implementation in the law, to consider it (in my view, without meaning insult here) a true and valueable thing.

It has for me, clarified in my own mind, that monogomy is truely the only pure marriage.

I thank you all for your help. I am sorry i couldnt come to the understanding and acceptance you desired for me, however I just cant.

But as said before Ruba, yes I do see some credit in the existance of polygamy and I see NO benefit in the Polyandry.

I think tho that women should be cared for by the community without having to marry anyone. that would in fact have covered that problem just as well. They could have specialised as teachers, nurses and other things to satisfy them and made them valuable, without the burden of children and family to care for. They could have in fact been held in very high esteem for the fact that with the qualities of being women, which is nurturing, patient and all those other things, they could have used those gifts for the whole of society ...

I guess the church did that with nuns. that is where unmarried women went to teach and to care for the sick.

[isa]

yes I do understand the perspective and respect that the prophet had the best intentions in mind when he made the rules for that time in history and the social setting of the time.
Errrmmm...

Rachael, our Prophet didn't make up the laws :D

And surely he never broke any Islaamic laws either :D

- Your companion (Muhammad, Peace and Blessings be upon him) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
- Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
- It is no less than revelation sent down to him.
al-Najm 53 : 2-4

[isa]

Also, Rachael, you are aware that Islaam actually cut down the number of women allowable to marry at any one given time, yes?

So, it is not necessarily just a primal urge satisfaction thing he was allowing here, rather holding the numbers back to a more reasonable amount, by Allaah's leave, not his own thoughts or regulations.

[Rachael]

then if it is not The Prophets laws you are following in Islam who's is it? with regards to polyagmy

[Ibn Farooq]

Yes, it is true that the Prophet (SAW) had more than 4 wives, which on the surface would appear to be breaking the law but according to scholars of Islam there are sections which are "KHAAS" (special) and are applicable to the Prophet (SAW) only. This is one of them. Different marriages revealed different aspects of the Prophet's (SAW) behaviour which are used as examples. But having more than 4 wives was allowed for the Prophet of Allah (SAW) only, by Allah, and not allowed for any one else.

[Imaan81]

then if it is not The Prophets laws you are following in Islam who's is it? with regards to polyagmy

Its Allahs laws

[Musa]

This is not the reason why multiple marriages are allowed in Islam, but it is something to make you think -

The Bible tells that Solomon had up to 5,000 wives and concubines.
Moses had many wives (7 I think), as did Abraham (4).

Why was the Law written for them? Why did God supposedly allow this for them?
If you can't answer this then I don't expect you to even begin to understand why it is allowed in Islam.

[Rachael]

Mecca does it make you wonder how or why laws change with progression and why Allah would change his mind going from 7 or 5000 wives down to 4?

Why would Allah change his mind?

And if Allah does change is laws to suit the current times, then 4 wives in this current age should perhaps be readdressed also by Allah.

hmmmm

[Rachael]

Yes, it is true that the Prophet (SAW) had more than 4 wives, which on the surface would appear to be breaking the law but according to scholars of Islam there are sections which are "KHAAS" (special) and are applicable to the Prophet (SAW) only. This is one of them. Different marriages revealed different aspects of the Prophet's (SAW) behaviour which are used as examples. But having more than 4 wives was allowed for the Prophet of Allah (SAW) only, by Allah, and not allowed for any one else.


So they are really now laws at all, but recommendations! as they are pliable to circumstances?

[Nick_Mick_Yok]

The exact reason and the only reason is this - Allah has allowed it. Same reason its allowed in the Bible.
Everything else is just opinions on its status.
ditto

[Musa]

Mecca does it make you wonder how or why laws change with progression and why Allah would change his mind going from 7 or 5000 wives down to 4?

Why would Allah change his mind?

And if Allah does change is laws to suit the current times, then 4 wives in this current age should perhaps be readdressed also by Allah.

hmmmmFirst of all, it is not befitting of God's Majesty to say 'He changes His mind'.
God's Omniscience is far above this. Changing one's mind implies error, and God is far removed from such.

I did not claim that God allowed 5,000 wives at any time, I claimed that this appears in the Bible. We do not accept this story of Solomon as further in the story it claims he transgressed God's limits and married women from the polytheists which were forbidden for him. Never has it been allowed in Islam to marry 5,000 at any stage.
Since Islam was complete it has always been legislated that 4 wives is the maximum a Muslim may marry. Never more, never less.
Does this need to be readressed? Of course not. Unless you believe sincerely within yourself that either
- God has got it wrong.
- Religion should keep in accord with societal changes.

Again as quoted, the reason why we affirm this part of Islam is because it has been allowed for us as it was allowed for the Jews, Christians, Hindus. etc. It is not any man, but God who has allowed this.
We ascribe all legislation to God alone and we know that God is Knowledgeable in a manner far beyond any knowledge we could ever begin to contemplate.

[isa]

then if it is not The Prophets laws you are following in Islam who's is it? with regards to polyagmy

I had answered it in my post to which you made the above statement Rachael :)

However, to make it clearer inshaaAllaah, I will just re-post the Qur'aanic Aayaat again, below inshaaAllaah:


- Your companion (Muhammad, Peace and Blessings be upon him) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
- Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
- It is no less than revelation sent down to him.
al-Najm 53 : 2-4

InshaaAllaah this clarifies it a bit more for you :)

Peace.

[Rachael]

I had answered it in my post to which you made the above statement Rachael :)

However, to make it clearer inshaaAllaah, I will just re-post the Qur'aanic Aayaat again, below inshaaAllaah:



InshaaAllaah this clarifies it a bit more for you :)

Peace.


No sorry Isa it doesnt make anything clearer :( what is that spose to mean, that its just revelation but he doesnt have to follow it? :confused:

[dijma]

are you saying in tibet they have multiple wives and husbands simultaneously, i find that hard to believe

[muslimsistar]

No sorry Isa it doesnt make anything clearer :( what is that spose to mean, that its just revelation but he doesnt have to follow it? :confused:

(I haven't only read this one page on the thread so sorry in advance if I repeat something)

Aphrodite - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent rules by God to follow and to proclaim them for others to follow. To a very few rules he was exempted from by the permission of God. One of these rules was on the number of wives he had. It was not his own desire that he was following and then hypocritically telling his followers to not do. He was sanctioned by God to do it. After a certain point God revealed this, forbidding him to marry more:

"It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things." 33:52

God set rules for the society as a whole and Prophet Muhammad was obliged like the rest to follow them. I'm sure people have already mentioned in this thread the reasons that Prophet Muhammd (pbuh) was exempted from the restriction of four wives.

I hope that clarifies the issue a little bit?

[Rachael]

(I haven't only read this one page on the thread so sorry in advance if I repeat something)

Aphrodite - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent rules by God to follow and to proclaim them for others to follow. To a very few rules he was exempted from by the permission of God. One of these rules was on the number of wives he had. It was not his own desire that he was following and then hypocritically telling his followers to not do. He was sanctioned by God to do it. After a certain point God revealed this, forbidding him to marry more:

"It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things." 33:52

God set rules for the society as a whole and Prophet Muhammad was obliged like the rest to follow them. I'm sure people have already mentioned in this thread the reasons that Prophet Muhammd (pbuh) was exempted from the restriction of four wives.

I hope that clarifies the issue a little bit?


This just does not make sense! Was Christ exempt from his messages? Did John the Baptist or any other prophet go against what they taught?

:shake:

[chickenrice]

Aphrodite - please clarify your question. Do you have a problem accepting that Prophet Muhammad was granted exceptions, or do you have a problem understanding that it's Allah's law and not Muhammad's law that Muslims follow?

[Rachael]

Aphrodite - please clarify your question. Do you have a problem accepting that Prophet Muhammad was granted exceptions, or do you have a problem understanding that it's Allah's law and not Muhammad's law that Muslims follow?


I guess I have a problem with all of it not making any sense.

Allah's law was delivered through Muhammed - YES

Allah made Muhammed exempt, but only Muhammed heard this - YES

its just way too hard to accept. No questions really just :eek: at Muhammed discrediting himself and his messages.

I cant really go further into it without being disrespectful, because I am just way too shocked that anyone would accept the messenger is granted exception from the laws he says Allah sends.

Its just not sensible, As far as I know NO OTHER prophet did such a thing.

[dijma]

I wouldnt call them exemption, rather specific laws for the Prophet of his time.

Like he (peace and blessings be upon him), cannot take charity, is allowed to fast continuously both night and day, and he is to stand in prayer during the night to mention just a few (he would stand until his feet were swollen) One would find it difficult to believe that our prophet would impose these difficulties upon himself if it were the pleasures of life that he was after. If this is the argument you are pursuing, it is one that even the most ardent antagonists to Islam have long abandoned.

In regards to the other prophets, we don't have much first hand evidence of their exact rulings and teachings. There is nothing comparable to what Muslims have in regards to how he lived and what he preached in any other religion. Its most likely that Prophets of the past had specific laws for them. One universal law is that prophets are to be buried where they pass away.

[Rachael]

The exact reason and the only reason is this - Allah has allowed it. Same reason its allowed in the Bible.
Everything else is just opinions on its status.


But thats not good enough Mecca! How can Allah allow something and then allow one person to have an exception! Doesnt that make you think at all? Do you blinding just say - cause allah said so? Or doesnt something in your heart question the sense in it?

ahhhh dont worry about it.. Allah allowed it - OKAY.

[Rachael]

I wouldnt call them exemption, rather specific laws for the Prophet of his time.

Like he (peace and blessings be upon him), cannot take charity, is allowed to fast continuously both night and day, and he is to stand in prayer during the night to mention just a few (he would stand until his feet were swollen) One would find it difficult to believe that our prophet would impose these difficulties upon himself if it were the pleasures of life that he was after. If this is the argument you are pursuing, it is one that even the most ardent antagonists to Islam have long abandoned.

In regards to the other prophets, we don't have much first hand evidence of their exact rulings and teachings. There is nothing comparable to what Muslims have in regards to how he lived and what he preached in any other religion. Its most likely that Prophets of the past had specific laws for them. One universal law is that prophets are to be buried where they pass away.

Well dont you believe in Christ? show me where he went against his teachings and where he was exempted. There is actually not even evidence to show he had a wife! let alone heaps of them!

How can God send such a pure and sacrificing messenger such as Christ and then as a final messenger send Muhummed? A man with man wives, who wars and takes spoils of wars?

I am getting more confused by the day trying to understand how Islam makes anyone believe that the Quran is the word of God...

Perhaps it is time for me to take some time out atm...

[dijma]

Well dont you believe in Christ? show me where he went against his teachings and where he was exempted.

show me where u can accurately and authentically tell me about the story of Isa the son of Mary, or even the other Prophets for that matter. Where is the so called book of Q with the teachings of Isa were the foundations of the 4 gospels which followed.

The only person whose exemptions from the laws of god are worth questioning is Paul, whose teachings most Christians follow today, not Isa's.

[chickenrice]

I guess I have a problem with all of it not making any sense. Allah's law was delivered through Muhammed - YES

I don't understand. What exactly is the issue here with believing Allah's law was delivered through Muhammad peace be upon him? Previously, He sent other prophets - Jesus peace be upon him, and Moses peace be upon him, and Abraham peace be upon him, and many more. In all these cases, the prophets didn't act according to what they wanted - they obeyed God's law.

What part of this doesn't make sense?


Allah made Muhammed exempt, but only Muhammed heard this - YES. its just way too hard to accept. No questions really just :eek: at Muhammed discrediting himself and his messages.
Exempt from what exactly? Can you honestly say it was a case of "one law in entirety for Muhammad peace be upon him, and one law in entirety for his followers"? No. The exemptions were few and focused on character traits that Muhammad peace be upon him possessed, that other human beings did not. Muslims believe that Muhammad peace be upon him was the guide for all humankind. In other words, he was as perfect as a human being could get. To make it simpler to digest: a lay Muslim could not have fulfilled the exemptions (such as more night prayers, fasting continuously etc) that Muhammad peace be upon him had to fulfil.


A man with man wives, who wars and takes spoils of wars? I am getting more confused by the day trying to understand how Islam makes anyone believe that the Quran is the word of God...
Well Islam is one of the globe's fastest growing faiths so even if you're confused, one fifth of the world (and growing) isn't. For a start, you might want to find out more about Muhammad peace be upon him, and ask questions about him - instead of insinuating that he was impure and who "wars" (your words not mine), you would be better off finding out the circumstances of his life and why the wars that took place during his lifetime occurred. For example, you don't like the fact that Muhammad peace be upon him took many wives - but what do you know about each marriage and why Muhammad peace be upon him undertook each one?

[Rachael]

show me where u can accurately and authentically tell me about the story of Isa the son of Mary, or even the other Prophets for that matter. Where is the so called book of Q with the teachings of Isa were the foundations of the 4 gospels which followed.

The only person whose exemptions from the laws of god are worth questioning is Paul, whose teachings most Christians follow today, not Isa's

there is No real evidence whatsoever been found for the existence of a Q Gospel... Not even a single manuscript fragment of Q has ever been found... None of the early church fathers mentioned anything that could have been the Q Gospel

[Rachael]

I don't understand. What exactly is the issue here with believing Allah's law was delivered through Muhammad peace be upon him? Previously, He sent other prophets - Jesus peace be upon him, and Moses peace be upon him, and Abraham peace be upon him, and many more. In all these cases, the prophets didn't act according to what they wanted - they obeyed God's law.

What part of this doesn't make sense?


Exempt from what exactly? Can you honestly say it was a case of "one law in entirety for Muhammad peace be upon him, and one law in entirety for his followers"? No. The exemptions were few and focused on character traits that Muhammad peace be upon him possessed, that other human beings did not. Muslims believe that Muhammad peace be upon him was the guide for all humankind. In other words, he was as perfect as a human being could get. To make it simpler to digest: a lay Muslim could not have fulfilled the exemptions (such as more night prayers, fasting continuously etc) that Muhammad peace be upon him had to fulfil.


Well Islam is one of the globe's fastest growing faiths so even if you're confused, one fifth of the world (and growing) isn't. For a start, you might want to find out more about Muhammad peace be upon him, and ask questions about him - instead of insinuating that he was impure and who "wars" (your words not mine), you would be better off finding out the circumstances of his life and why the wars that took place during his lifetime occurred. For example, you don't like the fact that Muhammad peace be upon him took many wives - but what do you know about each marriage and why Muhammad peace be upon him undertook each one?


From what I have been reading in the last few weeks trying to learn about Islam I have learnt that Mohommed forced pagans to convert to Islam at the point of the sword, forcing Christians and Jews to choose between conversion to Islam, paying a poll tax, or the sword, his having his critics murdered, his consummation of a marriage with a 9 year old girl, and his raiding of caravans to obtain financial resources therefore to claim he is the greatest prophet, one that even usurps the teachings of Jesus, and a man to be emulated by mankind, is rather suspect to say the least...

And no one ever questions because HE said ALLAH Says so.... it makes me pull my hair out.

[chickenrice]

I have learnt that Mohommed forced pagans to convert to Islam at the point of the sword, forcing Christians and Jews to choose between conversion to Islam, paying a poll tax, or the sword, his having his critics murdered, his consummation of a marriage with a 9 year old girl, and his raiding of caravans to obtain financial resources...And no one ever questions because HE said ALLAH Says so.... it makes me pull my hair out.

At first, the issue you seem to have is with the "exemptions". But when dijma pointed out that these "exemptions" actually involved hardship, and asked you to demonstrate what you knew about the life of Jesus peace be upon him in the context of the claims you made regarding the non-existence of exemptions in his life, and when I explained that the exemptions were few and took into account characteristics of Muhammad peace be upon him, you suddenly ignore all these issues and change the topic to a litany of the cliches you have encountered regarding the life of Muhammad peace be upon him, reading from (presumably) non-Muslim sources.

So my question to you is: did you question the sources from which you read about Muhammad, peace be upon him? All those things you mentioned are the stalwarts of anti-Islamic writers. They have tried for years to push these lies about Muhammad peace be upon him. My second question to you is: if explained each of those things point by point, are you open minded enough to accept the truth, or is your mind made up already? I'm not going to waste my time if it is.

[dijma]

there is No real evidence whatsoever been found for the existence of a Q Gospel... Not even a single manuscript fragment of Q has ever been found... None of the early church fathers mentioned anything that could have been the Q Gospel

wikipedia on Q - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_gospel

As I'm pointing out, there is nothing authentic historically to say that Jesus said and did certain things (apart from what the Qu'ran and authentic traditions tell us). Nothing that can be traced back directly to him empirically. So to say that he never had certain divine laws directed only to him from God is nothing but conjecture. To attribute certain sayings to him with 100% is nothing but folly and blind faith.

[Rachael]

Firstly I apologise if I am loosing my patience, as I pretty much lost the plot when repeatedly people keep telling me 'Cause Allah says so" it is so bloody frustrating to me, and makes me feel those peeps are just too lazy to think for themselves. I think blind faith is what is responsible for all the violent crap that happens in the world and it does send me off on a tangent to see people carry on this way. So if you understand I am probably just as my wits end with this discussion and its really not getting anywhere anymore its probably better to quit.

I am now being asked about Gospels, which I dont believe are the words of God either, but memories of men who are talking about the times of Jesus and his teachings.

I dont want to discuss things on a faith basis, but a general understanding of culture, and I keep sidetracking with my frustrations, because I do not understand, what I consider with my thinking to be unfair and unloving to some people!.

I am desperately trying to avoid getting into arguements, and I know these discussions will just upset me considering my views compared to Islam. And none of us will benefit.

dijma set me off on another path of frustration when not answering this question of mine,

Well dont you believe in Christ? show me where he went against his teachings and where he was exempted.


instead he/she answered me with a question, redirecting the discussion. Now I have just lost my train of thought :confused:

[Rachael]

I am also baffled on what you mean by exemptions for Christ???

[chickenrice]

as I pretty much lost the plot when repeatedly people keep telling me 'Cause Allah says so"
I can understand your frustrations with that, but in this thread hardly anyone has said that - at least not without further explanation. They've tried to address your concerns - you say you're not a fan of blind faith, but neither is Islam. It encourages questioning. So why not be critical of what you read about Islam, instead of just regurgitating what every anti-Muslim source has to tell you about Muhammad? I'm happy to dispel some of the myths you have about him, but if you feel that it might be better to just leave it, that's fine.


I am now being asked about Gospels, which I dont believe are the words of God either, but memories of men who are talking about the times of Jesus and his teachings...dijma set me off on another path of frustration when not answering this question of mine
I agree you should not be asked about something you don't believe in. You were asking about why Muhammad peace be upon him had exemptions, when no other prophet, to the best of your knowledge, had such exemptions. I *think* dijma was asking you to clarify what you knew about other prophets - basically wanting to know what basis you were making your assertions that Muhammad was unique in this case.

[cheesegirl]

But thats not good enough Mecca! How can Allah allow something and then allow one person to have an exception! Doesnt that make you think at all? Do you blinding just say - cause allah said so? Or doesnt something in your heart question the sense in it?

His marriages where of extreme political importance. you will notice that they all had some important political advantage behind them. He married women from other tribes so as to create a relationship with other tribes in other to soften their position towards Islam. And it worked very well to the best of my knowledge.

Also, keep in mind, for the political, spiritual and everything else aspects of Islam, we have literally hundreds of people who witnessed the Prophets doing things and had him explain things to them, so lots of people knew about that and could record it and spread it to the people. HOWEVER, if the Prophet had only ONE wife, that ONE wife would be the only person capable of conveying the message about what the Prophet did in his personal life! Only one person, and his personal and family life is of the most important parts that needs to be conveyed because it applies to ALL Muslims, unlike politics, for example which has hundreds of people to convey the message, but only a small number of the Muslims who actually need to use it. Having multiple wives means we have many sources about what the Prophets personal life was like, if someone forget something, or didn't know the answer, we have heaps of back up to make sure we don't miss anything about his personal life which we as Muslim need as an example for our own lives.

Those are just two of the wisdoms behind why he was allowed more than four wives.

By the way, as other people mentioned, this isn't the only law he was exempt from. He also had extra prayers that were obligatory upon him, such as praying AT NIGHT, whereas for the rest of us this is only recommended, not obligatory.

The reason why the laws are a tiny bit different for him is simple- he is a Messenger of Allah, and we are not. He has a massive duty that we will never have, and he needs to be strong in faith- his life as messenger was not a peace of cake, it took great determination and inner strength, and faith in God for him to put up with (10 years of torture for his followers in Makkah, 2-3 years of exile and boycotting of his WHOLE tribe, Muslims or not, that is a lot to put up with!!), that is why he had the extra rules, because he needed them.

p.s. you sound like you have been reading anti-Islamic sources, WHY???:eek: You will only set yourself back a hundred years in trying to figure out what is real Islam, and what is a mixed up, out of context load of rubbish!

[tofah]

SORRY A BIT LONG:o

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/the_sealed_nectar/NECTARZ3.html

(SEALED NECTAR -Prophet Mohamad (PBUH) BIOGRAPHY)
The Prophetic Household


It is well-known that the Prophet [pbuh] was exceptionally authorized to have more than four wives for various reasons. The wives he married were thirteen. Nine of them outlived him. Two died in his lifetime: Khadijah and the Mother of the poor (Umm Al-Masakeen) — Zainab bint Khuzaima, besides two others with whom he did not consummate his marriage.

Whosoever meditates on the life of the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh], will conceive that his marriage to this great number of women in the late years of his lifetime, after he had almost spent thirty years of his best days of youth sufficing himself to one old wife — Khadijah and later on to Sawdah, was in no way an overwhelming lustful desire to be satisfied through such a number of wives. These marriages were in fact motivated by aims and purposes much more glorious and greater than what normal marriages usually aim at.
The tendency of the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] towards establishing a relationship by marriage with both Abu Bakr and ‘Umar and his marriage to ‘Aishah and Hafsah — and getting his daughter Fatimah married to ‘Ali bin Abi Talib, and the marriage of his two daughters, Ruqaiyah and Umm Kulthum to ‘Uthman — indicate clearly that he aimed at confirming the relationship among the four men — whose sacrifices and great achievements in the cause of Islam are well-known.
Besides this, there was that tradition of the Arabs to honour the in-law relations. For them a son or a daughter-in-law was a means by which they sought the consolidation of relationship and affection with various phratries. Hostility and fights against alliances and affinities would bring an unforgettable shame, disgrace and degradation to them.
By marrying the Mothers of believers, the Prophet [pbuh] wanted to demolish or break down the Arab tribes’ enmity to Islam and extinguish their intense hatred. Umm Salamah was from Bani Makhzum — the clan of Abu Jahl and Khalid bin Al-Waleed. Her marriage to the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] produced good results. Khalid’s deliberately undecisive attitude at Uhud — for instance — was due to the Messenger’s marriage to Umm Salamah. Khalid went even further than that, in a short time he willingly became a keen obedient Muslim.
After the Messenger of Allâh’s marriage to Umm Habibah, Abu Sufyan, her father, did not encounter him with any sort of hostility. Similarly his marriage to Juwairiyah and Safiyah made the two tribes stop all sorts of provocation, aggression or hostility against Islam. Better still, Juwairiyah, herself, was one of the greatest sources of blessing to her own people. On the occasion of her marriage to the Prophet [pbuh], his Companions set a hundred families of her people free. They said: "It is for their affinity with the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh]." No need to say what great good impression this gratitude had on everybody’s soul. One of the greatest motives of all is Allâh’s bidding his Prophet to educate and purify the souls of people who had known nothing whatsoever about courtesy, education and culture. He had to teach them to comply with the necessities of civilization and to contribute to the solidification and the establishment of a new Islamic society.An essential fundamental rule of the Muslim society is to prohibit mixing of men and women. Providing direct education for women, though highly compelling, is impossible in the light of this Islamic norm. Therefore, the Prophet [pbuh] had to select some women of different ages and talents, and indoctrinate them systematically in order to educate she-bedouins and townswomen, old and young, and thus furnish them with the instruments of propagating the true faith. The Mothers of believers (i.e. wives of the Prophet [pbuh]) were in such a convenient position that they could convey the state of the Prophet [pbuh] and his affairs to people (men and women). Being educated and taught the teachings and rules of Islam, his wives, especially those who outlived him, played a very important role in conveying Prophetic traditions Ahadith to the Muslims. ‘Aishah, for instance, related a large number of the Prophet’s deeds and statements.His marriage to his paternal cousin Zainab bint Jahsh was a peculiar case which aimed at eradicating a deeply rooted pre-Islamic tradition — i.e. the adoption of children. In Al-Jahiliyah the Arabs used to consider an adopted person exactly like a real son or daughter as far as rights and sanctities are concerned. That Jahiliyah tradition had been so deeply rooted in their hearts that it was not easy to remove or uproot it. This tradition in fact affronts the basic principles of Islam; especially those concerned with marriage, divorce and inheritance and some other cases, and brought about lots of corruptions and indecencies. Naturally Islam stands against such deeds, and attempts to remove them from the Islamic society.
For the eradication of this tradition, Allâh, the Exalted, bid His Messenger [pbuh] to marry his cousin Zainab bint Jahsh, who was an ex-wife to Zaid. She was at variance with Zaid to an extent that he intended to divorce her — that was at the time when the Confederates (Al-Ahzab) were making an evil alliance against the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] and against the Muslims. The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] feared that the hypocrites, the idolaters, and the Jews would make a propaganda out of it and try to influence some Muslims of weak hearts. That was why he urged Zaid not to divorce her, in order not to get involved into that trial.
Undoubtedly this hesitation and partiality were alien to the character of the Prophet [pbuh] . They did not apply to the power of determination and will with which he had been sent. Allâh, the Exalted, blamed him for that by saying:
"And (remember) when you said to him (Zaid bin Haritha ÑÖì Çááå Úäå — the freed slave of the Prophet [pbuh]) on whom Allâh has bestowed grace (by guiding him to Islam) and you (O Muhammad [pbuh] too) have done favour (by manumitting him), ‘Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allâh.’ But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allâh has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which Allâh will make manifest, you did fear the people (i.e. Muhammad [pbuh] married the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allâh had a better right that you should fear him." [33:37]
Finally Zaid divorced Zainab and the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] married her at the time he laid siege to Bani Quraiza. That was after she had finished her Iddat (i.e. period during which a widow or a divorcee may not remarry). Allâh Himself had already ordained it, and so gave him no other alternative. Allâh had even started the marriage Himself by saying:
"So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, so that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in respect of (the marriage of) the wives of their adopted sons when the latter have no desire to keep them (i.e. they have divorced them)." [33:37]
And that was in order to break down the tradition of child adoption in practice after He had done it in words.
"Call them (adopted sons) by (the names of) their fathers, that is more just near Allâh." [33:5]
"Muhammad ([pbuh]) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allâh, and the last (end) of the Prophets." [33:40]
Lots of deeply-rooted traditions cannot be uprooted or demolished or even adjusted by mere words. They must be matched and associated with the action of the advocate of the Message himself.
This could be perceived through the deeds practised by the Muslims at Al-Hudaibiyah ‘Umrah (Lesser Pilgrimage) during which ‘Urwah bin Mas‘ud Al-Thaqafi saw certain Muslims tend to pick up any expectoration that fell down from the Prophet [pbuh]. He also saw them race to the water of his ablution and they almost quarrelled for it. There were others who competed to pledge allegiance to death and some others pledged not to flee from (the battlefield). Among those people, were eminent Companions like ‘Umar and Abu Bakr, who although dedicated all their lives to the Prophet [pbuh] and to the cause of Islam, but refused to carry out the Messenger’s ordres with respect to slaughtering sacrificial animals after the ratification of Al-Hudaibiyah Peace Treaty, the thing that perturbed and caused the Prophet [pbuh] to feel anxious. However, when Umm Salamah [ra] advised that he take the initiative and sacrifice his animals, his followers raced to follow his example; a clear evidence in support of the saying: Actions speak louder than words, in the process of exterminating a deeply-established tradition.
Hypocrites aroused a lot of suspicions and made a broad false propaganda against that marriage. Their acts and talks about that marriage had ill-effects on those Muslims whose Faith was still weak, particularly that Zainab was the fifth wife — and the Noble Qur’ân limited the number up to four only; Zaid was traditionally his son, and so a father marrying his son’s divorcee was a heinous sin in the eyes of the Arabians.
Al-Ahzab Surah was revealed to shed full light on the two issues, i.e. Islam does not recognize adoption of children, and the Prophet [pbuh] is given (by Allâh) more freedom as regards the number of wives he can hold than other Muslims in order to achieve noble and honourable purposes.
However, the treatment of the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] to his wives was of honourable, noble, and superb nature. His wives were on tops in respect of honour, satisfaction, patience, modesty, and service (that is to say the performance of housework and marriage duties). Although the Messenger’s house-life was hard and unbearable, none of his wives complained. Anas said about the Prophet’s life: "According to my knowledge, the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] has never tasted a thin flattened loaf in all his lifetime, nor has he ever seen with his own eyes roasted mutton."[]
‘Aishah said: "Over two months have elapsed — during which we have seen three crescents — and yet no fire has been kindled in the houses of the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] (i.e. they did not cook food)." "What did you eat to sustain yourselves?" ‘Urwah asked. She said "The two blacks: dates and water"[]. Lots of information about the hard life of the Prophet [pbuh] were told.
In spite of these hardships, straits and adversity of life in the house of the Prophet [pbuh], none of his wives uttered a word of complaint worthy of reproach — but once. This exception was required by human instinctive inclinations. However, it was not so important and consequently it did not require the decree of a legislative rule. Allâh has given them an opportunity to choose between two things, as clearly stated in the following verses:
"O Prophet (Muhammad [pbuh])! Say to your wives: ‘If you desire the life of this world, and its glitter, — then come! I will make a provision for you and set you free in a handsome manner (divorce). But if you desire Allâh and His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, then verily, Allâh has prepared for Al-Muhsinat (good doers) amongst you an enormous reward.’" [33:28,29]
They were so noble and honest that none of them preferred ‘the life of this world and its glitter’ to the abode in the Hereafter.
Although they were many in number, nothing of the dispute occurrences that normally happen among co-wives, took place in their houses. Very few cases could be the only exception; but they were quite normal. Allâh reproached them for that, so they ceased to do such a thing. This incident is mentioned in At-Tahreem Chapter:
"O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allâh has made lawful to you …" [66:1] (to the end of the fifth verse).
Discussing polygamy — in my opinion — is not a necessity; since a person who is familiar with the Europeans, and indecent practices, sufferings, wickedness, their sorrows and distresses, the horrible crimes they commit in this respect as well as the trials, the disasters that they are involved in, and which emanate directly from their disregard of the principle of polygamy form a good reason (to justify the soundness of polygamy). The distorted picture of life in Europe with the ill-practices featuring it, could truthfully justify the existence and practice of polygamy. In this, there are Divine signs for all people possessed of lucid mind.

[Rachael]

So Islam teaches that it is alright for a woman to be traded for peace?

Here have my daughter and you will give me peace? that is how i interpret that.

If Mohommed could not spread Islam without sacrificing others such as women that were forced to marry him, or chose to to please their fathers (which is the same), then Islam should not have been spread. it was forced and not accepted naturally.

Did Jesus take from anyone to spread his message?
Did John the Baptist believe he had to make others suffer?

Both these men had people come to them, they did not have to go out and make women marry them to spread their word!

Christianity is as big or bigger than islam (????) and that was done without any wives to force to learn their teachings under the guise of marriage.

Saying he needed wives to spread his message is therefore false because other prophets spread the word and had people convert to their teachings without oppressing women into marriage!

Originally this thread was argued that Polygamy was the only solution.

Christianity has proved this false as well, they brought those excess women into nunneries and they helped the poor and sick and had fulfilling lives, without the oppression of having to be a wife if they did not wish to be.

[Rachael]

Lots of deeply-rooted traditions cannot be uprooted or demolished or even adjusted by mere words

GODS WORD should have the power to do so!

Jesus uprooted and demolished traditions with mere words!

[Rachael]

Also with regards to 'Aisha one of his wives

the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

How on earth could he possible explain this away with it being Gods will/word?

Girls of that age, have their bowels destroyed when giving birth and frequently soil themselves uncontrollably for the rest of their lives afterwards?

how possibly could God have wanted this and allowed him this exemption considering the suffering of that young lass

[cheesegirl]

So Islam teaches that it is alright for a woman to be traded for peace?

Here have my daughter and you will give me peace? that is how i interpret that.

If Mohommed could not spread Islam without sacrificing others such as women that were forced to marry him, or chose to to please their fathers (which is the same), then Islam should not have been spread. it was forced and not accepted naturally.

Excuse me? Why is something innate in you that assume the worst in him? Where did I say the women were forced into marriage?! They all wanted to marry him! In fact, one of them, her father was the prophets ENEMY and he told his daughter that she found a good husband!

[cheesegirl]

the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

How on earth could he possible explain this away with it being Gods will/word?

Girls of that age, have their bowels destroyed when giving birth and frequently soil themselves uncontrollably for the rest of their lives afterwards?

how possibly could God have wanted this and allowed him this exemption considering the suffering of that young lass

It was 100% perfectly NORMAL for girls in Arabia to marry at the age. If they noticed that it had seriously health draw backs, do you think they would have continued with it?

That was not an exception, that was the norm of the society. As soon as a girl or boy reach puberty, they are considered adults and can get married.

Not even the prophets worst enemies tried to discredit him based on this marriage, so it is pointless for any one else to do so.

By the way, what suffering? She absolutely loved her husband.

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

Rachael, forcing anyone into marriage is against Islam, so i advise you to stop interpreting things at your own whim and read about Islam in an OBJECTIVE manner.

You sit here asking questions yet your mind is all geared up to rebut any answer given before it's even been typed up and read. You're not being objective.

It's been said before and i'll say it again, the Prophet was allowed to keep his wives and not limit them to four (like his companions) when it was revealed that the limit was 4, simply because Allah gave him permission to do so.

The Prophet's wives are considered to be the Mothers of the Believers and if divorced, they would have been left unmarried and unprotected, as it is forbidden to marry the Mothers of the Believers.

In regard to the Prophet not being able to provide for all of his wives and give them abundant food and possessions etc, the Prophet told them that if they were content with a frugal life they could remain with him, otherwise, he would release them with due consideration. Guess what? They ALL decided to remain with the Prophet. Yes, it was voluntary, so please stop spreading lies in that they were forced to marry him, otherwise, they would have left the first chance they had.

[Rachael]

It was 100% perfectly NORMAL for girls in Arabia to marry at the age. If they noticed that it had seriously health draw backs, do you think they would have continued with it?

That was not an exception, that was the norm of the society. As soon as a girl or boy reach puberty, they are considered adults and can get married.

Not even the prophets worst enemies tried to discredit him based on this marriage, so it is pointless for any one else to do so.

By the way, what suffering? She absolutely loved her husband.


What does a child of 9 know about sexual relationships let alone love an old man on top of them, and probably twice their weight?

can you tell me at 9 you would have liked this situation?

A human brain is proven NOT to reach maturity until the age of 25! The 9 year old brain is incapable of understanding the committments of marriage let alone the consequences of agreeing to such a thing.

Do you remember being 9?

IF it was normal in Arabia at that time, it does not make it humane?

dont you know about the women in Africa still under this barbaric situation?

Would you like to read an article on a child bride ? By Unicef? http://www.unicef.org/ethiopia/ET_real_Wubit.pdf here do so! and read the reasons why these types of societies allow it and ask yourself is that good enough reasons.

Was she still playing with her dollys? my girls were at that age. :eek: My eldest child at 14 still has not had her period. so how would a child of 9 understand anything of sex.

[Rachael]

Rachael, forcing anyone into marriage is against Islam, so i advise you to stop interpreting things at your own whim and read about Islam in an OBJECTIVE manner.

You sit here asking questions yet your mind is all geared up to rebut any answer given before it's even been typed up and read. You're not being objective.

It's been said before and i'll say it again, the Prophet was allowed to keep his wives and not limit them to four (like his companions) when it was revealed that the limit was 4, simply because Allah gave him permission to do so.

The Prophet's wives are considered to be the Mothers of the Believers and if divorced, they would have been left unmarried and unprotected, as it is forbidden to marry the Mothers of the Believers.

In regard to the Prophet not being able to provide for all of his wives and give them abundant food and possessions etc, the Prophet told them that if they were content with a frugal life they could remain with him, otherwise, he would release them with due consideration. Guess what? They ALL decided to remain with the Prophet. Yes, it was voluntary, so please stop spreading lies in that they were forced to marry him, otherwise, they would have left the first chance they had.


okay fine its the Allah said so thing again - Fine no worries. As soon as I start asking pertinent questions I get because allah said so response.

I am researching Aisha on the net atm and found this Hadith could you please explain if it is interpretted incorrectly for me. If it is not interepretted incorrectly, then the story spoken by Aisha makes it quite clear that she did not know what was going on

http://www.exmuslim.com/com/evidence.htm

Also cant you see the error in your arguement in your post? No one could marry the wives of the prophet if they left him, however they were told they were free to leave him!!!! :shake: Doesnt that scream to you that they chose a life where they were not able to be cared for again by a husband or the were to stay put! THAT is not a choice, its abuse.

[SuBMiSSioN]

I find it quite sad that you get your sources from non-muslims, from the internet, from people who are out there to discredit Islaam in any means they have. These people use lies to backup their arguments, and I find it sad that someone as intelligent as you doesn't take her sources straight from the books and scholars of Islaam.

[cheesegirl]

Would you like to read an article on a child bride ? By Unicef? http://www.unicef.org/ethiopia/ET_real_Wubit.pdf here do so! and read the reasons why these types of societies allow it and ask yourself is that good enough reasons.

No offence, but that was an absolutely pointless article that has nothing to do with the Prophets marriage. It seems the main concern they had was school. They didn't have school 1400 years ago. :rolleyes:

Also seems the girl was forced into the marriage. Forced marriages are a illegal in Islam. :brow:

Apparently the girl hadn't even reached puberty yet, yet another sin in Islam to marry before puberty. :eek:

She also seems to be a servant to her in-laws. Muslim women aren't asked to be servants to their in-laws.

The girl also didn't seem to like her husband much, and yet Aisha adored Muhammad pbuh. hmm:brow:

Let's not forget the cultural differences between modern Ethiopia and Arabia 1400 years ago. Throw in the different ages for puberty too, you will hopefully notice that there is a massive difference.

[cheesegirl]

Also cant you see the error in your arguement in your post? No one could marry the wives of the prophet if they left him, however they were told they were free to leave him!!!! :shake: Doesnt that scream to you that they chose a life where they were not able to be cared for again by a husband or the were to stay put! THAT is not a choice, its abuse.

Why are you trying to impose your views on them, they loved their husband and loved to stay with him, who are you to tell them that they were abused and what right do you have to impose your own opinion on them and act like they weren't mature enough to make their own decisions, when you had never even met them?

People living back in Arabia 1400 aren't obliged to follow the culture of modern day Australia.

:shake:

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

okay fine its the Allah said so thing again - Fine no worries. As soon as I start asking pertinent questions I get because Allah said so response.

You say that in a derogative manner, but we as Muslims are proud of the fact that we "Hear and Obey" our Creator.

As i mentioned once before, you're really wasting your time asking questions about areas within Islam, when you're missing the most important aspect of it, the Oneness of God. You don't even truly know who your Creator is, so how will you be convinced of His words?

Your avatar says "Speak the Truth". How about seeking it first before you go around spreading lies about Islam and the Prophet :saw:

[jah]

Speaking of maturity levels, I believe that 9 year old girls in prophet's time (pbuh) were more mature than most of today's 18 yr old girls!

And when my mother was about that age she could cook, clean, look after her siblings, iron shirts for her older brothers, make her own bread from scratch and so on and so on. Compare that to a nine yr old girl today :cool: let alone comparing girls in prophets time vs present times. Dont even try!

[مروة]

That's a very good point.. U have to look at it in a historical perspective.. look at the social norms at that time, the life expectancies etc..

You cant compare people then with people now..

[Rachael]

Well I am shocked that women and mothers can justify such an act!

I have been told that Islam brought women their rights a lot sooner than the west, but obviously the west protected children much sooner than Islam.

I am sorry ladies, but there is not a bone in my body that could be convinced that there is any morality is a 6 year old being married off to an old man.

If you can justify it, then that will be your moment with God on judgement day. And I will now remain silent on what you perceive as derogatory comments on your prophet. I AM speaking the truth, you guys are just justifying untruths IMO.

I am over it, this thread has left a very sour taste in my mouth.

[cheesegirl]

Okay, you just go ahead and let your own bias and cultural upbringing allow you to make judgments on a society with a 100% different lifestyle than your own. You aren't speaking the truth. You are imposing your own culture and lifestyle on others.

Just because 9 year olds are literally babies in our times, doesn't mean they always were.

And she wasn't married at 6, she was engaged. She got married at 9. Oh yeh, she wasn't a child either. She hit puberty, that makes her an adult.

[Rachael]

Okay, you just go ahead and let your own bias and cultural upbringing allow you to make judgments on a society with a 100% different lifestyle than your own. You aren't speaking the truth. You are imposing your own culture and lifestyle on others.

Just because 9 year olds are literally babies in our times, doesn't mean they always were.

And she wasn't married at 6, she was engaged. She got married at 9. Oh yeh, she wasn't a child either. She hit puberty, that makes her an adult.

Only an adult to those that wish to be ignorant to medical knowledge!

if you impregnate a 9 year old -THINK of the consequences, her best interests were not considered in this situation.

If Mohommed truely was in communication with God, I am sure God would have told him that.

[cheesegirl]

Okay, how many of these medical studies where directed at girls who lived in a society where getting married as soon as one reacher puberty was normal AND the girls were prepared for it, and dated back 1400 years ago?:brow:

By the way, she never got pregnant either.

[Umm Jannah]

Aphrodite: Take this then, if I was offered to marry the Prophet Muhammad :saw: I would have married him with no DOUBT!

That is a real answer for you.

I said that to my mother when I was 9, I would, when I studied about Aisha r.a.

We love him woman...That is all urrrgh..

[aussiemu]

This thread is closed.