What is...

[Muhammad]

...a bid'ah hasana?

[Islamic Creature]

it means a good innovation and in Islam there is no room for it. na3am.

[Shadower]

It is a statement attributed to Umar RA when he made the Taraweeh prayer as a congregation Salaat, but before him Muhammad saws also used to pray it in congregation but stopped so that it did not become a fard upon the Muslims to pray it in congregation as it is difficult. So the Muslims would pray is seperately until Umar RA made it in congregation in the masjid so that you did not have everyone praying it seperately.

As for the term "good bid`ah" it does not exist. Every bid'ah is a misguidance and every misguidance is in Hellfire.

[Islamic Creature]

na3am???

[Tay_]

it means a good innovation and in Islam there is no room for it. na3am.

Really?

The Concept of Bid'a in the Islamic Shari'a

by Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller

There are few topics that generate as much controversy today in Islam as what is sunna and what is bida or reprehensible innovation, perhaps because of the times Muslims live in today and the challenges they face. Without a doubt, one of the greatest events in impact upon Muslims in the last thousand years is the end of the Islamic caliphate at the first of this century, an event that marked not only the passing of temporal, political authority, but in many respects the passing of the consensus of orthodox Sunni Islam as well.

No one familiar with the classical literature in any of the Islamic legal sciences, whether Koranic exegesis (tafsir), hadith, or jurisprudence (fiqh), can fail to be struck by the fact that questions are asked today about basic fundamentals of Islamic Sacred Law (Sharia) and its ancillary disciplines that would not have been asked in the Islamic period not because Islamic scholars were not brilliant enough to produce the questions, but because they already knew the answers.

My talk tonight will aim to clarify some possible misunderstandings of the concept of innovation (bida) in Islam, in light of the prophetic hadith,

"Beware of matters newly begun, for every matter newly begun is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in hell."

The sources I use are traditional Islamic sources, and my discussion will centre on three points:

The first point is that scholars say that the above hadith does not refer to all new things without restriction, but only to those which nothing in Sacred Law attests to the validity of. The use of the word "every" in the hadith does not indicate an absolute generalization, for there are many examples of similar generalizations in the Koran and sunna that are not applicable without restriction, but rather are qualified by restrictions found in other primary textual evidence.

The second point is that the sunna and way of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was to accept new acts initiated in Islam that were of the good and did not conflict with established principles of Sacred Law, and to reject things that were otherwise.

And our third and last point is that new matters in Islam may not be rejected merely because they did not exist in the first century, but must be evaluated and judged according to the comprehensive methodology of Sacred Law, by virtue of which it is and remains the final and universal moral code for all peoples until the end of time.

Our first point, that the hadith does not refer to all new things without restriction, but only to those which nothing in Sacred Law attests to the validity of, may at first seem strange, in view of the wording of the hadith, which says, "every matter newly begun is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in hell." Now the word "bida" or "innovation" linguistically means anything new, So our first question must be about the generalizability of the word every in the hadith: does it literally mean that everything new in the world is haram or unlawful? The answer is no. Why?

In answer to this question, we may note that there are many similar generalities in the Koran and sunna, all of them admitting of some qualification, such as the word of Allah Most High in Surat al-Najm,

". . . A man can have nothing, except what he strives for" (Koran 53:39), despite there being an overwhelming amount of evidence that a Muslim benefits from the spiritual works of others, for example, from his fellow Muslims, the prayers of angels for him, the funeral prayer over him, charity given by others in his name, and the supplications of believers for him; Or consider the words of Allah to unbelievers in Surat al-Anbiya,

"Verily you and what you worship apart from Allah are the fuel of hell" (Koran 21:98), "what you worship" being a general expression, while there is no doubt that Jesus, his mother, and the angels were all worshipped apart from Allah, but are not "the fuel of hell", so are not what is meant by the verse; Or the word of Allah Most High in Surat al-Anam about past nations who paid no heed to the warners who were sent to them, "But when they forgot what they had been reminded of, We opened unto them the doors of everything" (Koran 6:44), though the doors of mercy were not opened unto them; And the hadith related by Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "No one who prays before sunrise and before sunset will enter hell", which is a generalised expression that definitely does not mean what its outward generality implies, for someone who prays the dawn and midafternoon prayers and neglects all other prayers and obligatory works is certainly not meant.

It is rather a generalization whose intended referent is particular, or a generalization that is qualified by other texts, for when there are fully authenticated hadiths, it is obligatory to reach an accord between them, because they are in reality as a single hadith, the statements that appear without further qualification being qualified by those that furnish the qualification, that the combined implications of all of them may be utilized.

Let us look for a moment at bida or innovation in the light of the sunna of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) concerning new matters. Sunna and innovation (bida) are two opposed terms in the language of the Lawgiver (Allah bless him and give him peace), such that neither can be defined without reference to the other, meaning that they are opposites, and things are made clear by their opposites. Many writers have sought to define innovation (bida) without defining the sunna, while it is primary, and have thus fallen into inextricable difficulties and conflicts with the primary textual evidence that contradicts their definition of innovation, whereas if they had first defined the sunna, they would have produced a criterion free of shortcomings.

Sunna, in both the language of the Arabs and the Sacred Law, means way, as is illustrated by the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace),

"He who inaugurates a good sunna in Islam [dis: Reliance of the Traveller p58.1(2)] ...And he who introduces a bad sunna in Islam...", sunna meaning way or custom. The way of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) in giving guidance, accepting, and rejecting: this is the sunna. For "good sunna" and "bad sunna" mean a "good way" or "bad way", and cannot possibly mean anything else. Thus, the meaning of "sunna" is not what most students, let alone ordinary people, understand; namely, that it is the prophetic hadith (as when sunna is contrasted with "Kitab", i.e. Koran, in distinguishing textual sources), or the opposite of the obligatory (as when sunna, i.e. recommended, is contrasted with obligatory in legal contexts), since the former is a technical usage coined by hadith scholars, while the latter is a technical usage coined by legal scholars and specialists in fundamentals of jurisprudence. Both of these are usages of later origin that are not what is meant by sunna here. Rather, the sunna of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is his way of acting, ordering, accepting, and rejecting, and the way of his Rightly Guided Caliphs who followed his way acting, ordering, accepting, and rejecting. So practices that are newly begun must be examined in light of the sunna of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and his way and path in acceptance or rejection.

Now, there are a great number of hadiths, most of them in the rigorously authenticated (sahih) collections, showing that many of the prophetic Companions initiated new acts, forms of invocation (dhikr), supplications (dua), and so on, that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) had never previously done or ordered to be done. Rather, the Companions did them because of their inference and conviction that such acts were of the good that Islam and the Prophet of Islam came with and in general terms urged the like of to be done, in accordance with the word of Allah Most High in Surat al-Hajj,

"And do the good, that haply you may succeed" (Koran 22:77), and the hadith of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), "He who inaugurates a good sunna in Islam earns the reward of it and all who perform it after him without diminishing their own rewards in the slightest."

Though the original context of the hadith was giving charity, the interpretative principle established by the scholarly consensus (def: Reliance of the Traveller b7) of specialists in fundamentals of Sacred Law is that the point of primary texts lies in the generality of their lexical significance, not the specificity of their historical context, without this implying that just anyone may make provisions in the Sacred Law, for Islam is defined by principles and criteria, such that whatever one initiates as a sunna must be subject to its rules, strictures, and primary textual evidence.

From this investigative point of departure, one may observe that many of the prophetic Companions performed various acts through their own personal reasoning, (ijtihad), and that the sunna and way of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was both to accept those that were acts of worship and good deeds conformable with what the Sacred Law had established and not in conflict with it; and to reject those which were otherwise. This was his sunna and way, upon which his caliphal successors and Companions proceeded, and from which Islamic scholars (Allah be well pleased with them) have established the rule that any new matter must be judged according to the principles and primary texts of Sacred Law: whatever is attested to by the law as being good is acknowledged as good, and whatever is attested to by the law as being a contravention and bad is rejected as a blameworthy innovation (bida). They sometimes term the former a good innovation (bida hasana) in view of it lexically being termed an innovation , but legally speaking it is not really an innovation but rather an inferable sunna as long as the primary texts of the Sacred Law attest to its being acceptable.

We now turn to the primary textual evidence previously alluded to concerning the acts of the Companions and how the Prophet, (Allah bless him and give him peace) responded to them:

(1) Bukhari and Muslim relate from Abu Hurayra (Allah be well pleased with him) that at the dawn prayer the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said to Bilal, "Bilal, tell me which of your acts in Islam you are most hopeful about, for I have heard the footfall of your sandals in paradise", and he replied, "I have done nothing I am more hopeful about than the fact that I do not perform ablution at any time of the night or day without praying with that ablution whatever has been destined for me to pray."

Ibn Hajar Asqalani says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith shows it is permissible to use personal reasoning (ijtihad) in choosing times for acts of worship, for Bilal reached the conclusions he mentioned by his own inference, and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) confirmed him therein.

Similar to this is the hadith in Bukhari about Khubayb (who asked to pray two rakas before being executed by idolaters in Mecca) who was the first to establish the sunna of two rak'as for those who are steadfast in going to their death. These hadiths are explicit evidence that Bilal and Khubayb used their own personal reasoning (ijtihad) in choosing the times of acts of worship, without any previous command or precedent from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) other than the general demand to perform the prayer.

(2) Bukhari and Muslim relate that Rifa'a ibn Rafi said, "When we were praying behind the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and he raised his head from bowing and said , "Allah hears whoever praises Him", a man behind him said, "Our Lord, Yours is the praise, abundantly, wholesomely, and blessedly therein." When he rose to leave, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) asked "who said it", and when the man replied that it was he, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "I saw thirty-odd angels each striving to be the one to write it." Ibn Hajar says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith indicates the permissibility of initiating new expressions of dhikr in the prayer other than the ones related through hadith texts, as long as they do not contradict those conveyed by the hadith [since the above words were a mere enhancement and addendum to the known, sunna dhikr].

(3) Bukhari relates from Aisha (Allah be well pleased with her) that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) dispatched a man at the head of a military expedition who recited the Koran for his companions at prayer, finishing each recital with al-Ikhlas (Koran 112). When they returned, they mentioned this to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who told them, "Ask him why he does this", and when they asked him, the man replied, "because it describes the All-merciful, and I love to recite it." The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said to them, "Tell him Allah loves him." In spite of this, we do not know of any scholar who holds that doing the above is recommended, for the acts the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to do regularly are superior, though his confirming the like of this illustrates his sunna regarding his acceptance of various forms of obedience and acts of worship, and shows he did not consider the like of this to be a reprehensible innovation (bida), as do the bigots who vie with each other to be the first to brand acts as innovation and misguidance. Further, it will be noticed that all the preceding hadiths are about the prayer, which is the most important of bodily acts of worship, and of which the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Pray as you have seen me pray", despite which he accepted the above examples of personal reasoning because they did not depart from the form defined by the Lawgiver, for every limit must be observed, while there is latitude in everything besides, as long as it is within the general category of being called for by Sacred Law. This is the sunna of the Prophet and his way (Allah bless him and give him peace) and is as clear as can be. Islamic scholars infer from it that every act for which there is evidence in Sacred Law that it is called for and which does not oppose an unequivocal primary text or entail harmful consequences is not included in the category of reprehensible innovation (bida), but rather is of the sunna, even if there should exist something whose performance is superior to it.

(4) Bukhari relates from Abu Said al-Khudri that a band of the Companions of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) departed on one of their journeys, alighting at the encampment of some desert Arabs whom they asked to be their hosts, but who refused to have them as guests. The leader of the encampment was stung by a scorpion, and his followers tried everything to cure him, and when all had failed, one said, "If you would approach the group camped near you, one of them might have something". So they came to them and said, "O band of men, our leader has been stung and weve tried everything. Do any of you have something for it?" and one of them replied, "Yes, by Allah, I recite healing words [ruqya, def: Reliance of the Traveller w17] over people, but by Allah, we asked you to be our hosts and you refused, so I will not recite anything unless you give us a fee". They then agreed upon a herd of sheep, so the man went and began spitting and reciting the Fatiha over the victim until he got up and walked as if he were a camel released from its hobble, nothing the matter with him. They paid the agreed upon fee, which some of the Companions wanted to divide up, but the man who had done the reciting told them, "Do not do so until we reach the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and tell him what has happened, to see what he may order us to do". They came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and told him what had occurred, and he said, "How did you know it was of the words which heal? You were right. Divide up the herd and give me a share."

The hadith is explicit that the Companion had no previous knowledge that reciting the Fatiha to heal (ruqya) was countenanced by Sacred Law, but rather did so because of his own personal reasoning (ijtihad), and since it did not contravene anything that had been legislated, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) confirmed him therein because it was of his sunna and way to accept and confirm what contained good and did not entail harm, even if it did not proceed from the acts of the Prophet himself (Allah bless him and give him peace) as a definitive precedent.

(5) Bukhari relates from Abu Said al-Khudri that one man heard another reciting al-Ikhlas (Koran 112) over and over again, so when morning came he went to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and sarcastically mentioned it to him. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "By Him in whose hand is my soul, it equals one-third of the Koran." Daraqutni recorded another version of this hadith in which the man said, "I have a neighbor who prays at night and does not recite anything but al-Ikhlas." The hadith shows that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) confirmed the persons restricting himself to this sura while praying at night, despite its not being what the Prophet himself did (Allah bless him and give him peace), for though the Prophets practice of reciting from the whole Koran was superior, the mans act was within the general parameters of the sunna and there was nothing blameworthy about it in any case.

(6) Ahmad and Ibn Hibban relates from Abdullah ibn Burayda that his father said, I entered the mosque with the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), where a man was at prayer, supplicating: "O Allah, I ask You by the fact that I testify You are Allah, there is no god but You, the One, the Ultimate, who did not beget and was not begotten, and to whom none is equal", and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "By Him in whose hand is my soul, he has asked Allah by His greatest name, which if He is asked by it He gives, and if supplicated He answers". It is plain that this supplication came spontaneously from the Companion, and since it conformed to what the Sacred Law calls for, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) confirmed it with the highest degree of approbation and acceptance, while it is not known that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) had ever taught it to him (Adilla Ahl al-Sunna wa'al-Jamaa, 119-33).

We are now able to return to the hadith with which I began my talk tonight, in which the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, ". . . Beware of matters newly begun, for every innovation is misguidance". And understand it as expounded by a classic scholar of Islam, Sheikh Muhammad Jurdani, who said:

"Beware of matters newly begun", distance yourselves and be wary of matters newly innovated that did not previously exist", i.e. things invented in Islam that contravene the Sacred Law, "for every innovation is misguidance" meaning that every innovation is the opposite of the truth, i.e. falsehood, a hadith that has been related elsewhere as: "for every newly begun matter is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in hell" meaning that everyone who is misguided, whether through himself or by following another, is in hell, the hadith referring to matters that are not good innovations with a basis in Sacred Law. It has been stated (by Izz ibn Abd al-Salam) that innovations (bida) fall under the five headings of the Sacred Law (n: i.e. the obligatory, unlawful, recommended, offensive, and permissible):

(1) The first category comprises innovations that are obligatory , such as recording the Koran and the laws of Islam in writing when it was feared that something might be lost from them; the study of the disciplines of Arabic that are necessary to understand the Koran and sunna such as grammar, word declension, and lexicography; hadith classification to distinguish between genuine and spurious prophetic traditions; and the philosophical refutations of arguments advanced by the Mu'tazilites and the like.

(2) The second category is that of unlawful innovations such as non- Islamic taxes and levies, giving positions of authority in Sacred Law to those unfit for them, and devoting ones time to learning the beliefs of heretical sects that contravene the tenets of faith of Ahl al-Sunna.

(3) The third category consists of recommended innovations such as building hostels and schools of Sacred Law, recording the research of Islamic schools of legal thought, writing books on beneficial subjects, extensive research into fundamentals and particular applications of Sacred Law, in-depth studies of Arabic linguistics, the reciting of wirds (def: Reliance of the Traveller w20) by those with a Sufi path, and commemorating the birth (mawlid), of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) and wearing ones best and rejoicing at it.

(4) The fourth category includes innovations that are offensive, such as embellishing mosques, decorating the Koran and having a backup man (muballigh) loudly repeat the spoken Allahu Akbar of the imam when the latter's voice is already clearly audible to those who are praying behind him.

(5) the fifth category is that of innovations that are permissible, such as sifting flour, using spoons and having more enjoyable food, drink and housing. (al Jawahir al-luluiyya fi sharh al-Arbain al-nawawiyya, 220-21).

I will conclude my remarks tonight with a translation of Sheikh Abdullah al-Ghimari, who said: In his al-Qawaid al-kubra, "Izz ibn Abd al-Salam classifies innovations (bida), according to their benefit, harm, or indifference, into the five categories of rulings: the obligatory, recommended, unlawful, offensive, and permissible; giving examples of each and mentioning the principles of Sacred Law that verify his classification. His words on the subject display his keen insight and comprehensive knowledge of both the principles of jurisprudence and the human advantages and disadvantages in view of which the Lawgiver has established the rulings of Sacred Law.

Because his classification of innovation (bida) was established on a firm basis in Islamic jurisprudence and legal principles, it was confirmed by Imam Nawawi, Ibn Hajar Asqalani, and the vast majority of Islamic scholars, who received his words with acceptance and viewed it obligatory to apply them to the new events and contingencies that occur with the changing times and the peoples who live in them. One may not support the denial of his classification by clinging to the hadith "Every innovation is misguidance", because the only form of innovation that is without exception misguidance is that concerning tenets of faith, like the innovations of the Mutazilites, Qadarites, Murjiites, and so on, that contradicted the beliefs of the early Muslims. This is the innovation of misguidance because it is harmful and devoid of benefit. As for innovation in works, meaning the occurrence of an act connected with worship or something else that did not exist in the first century of Islam, it must necessarily be judged according to the five categories mentioned by Izz ibn Abd al-Salam. To claim that such innovation is misguidance without further qualification is simply not applicable to it, for new things are among the exigencies brought into being by the passage of time and generations, and nothing that is new lacks a ruling of Allah Most High that is applicable to it, whether explicitly mentioned in primary texts, or inferable from them in some way. The only reason that Islamic law can be valid for every time and place and be the consummate and most perfect of all divine laws is because it comprises general methodological principles and universal criteria, together with the ability its scholars have been endowed with to understand its primary texts, the knowledge of types of analogy and parallelism, and the other excellences that characterize it. Were we to rule that every new act that has come into being after the first century of Islam is an innovation of misguidance without considering whether it entails benefit or harm, it would invalidate a large share of the fundamental bases of Sacred Law as well as those rulings established by analogical reasoning, and would narrow and limit the Sacred Laws vast and comprehensive scope. (Adilla Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jamaa, 145-47).

[Tay_]

Can you please not cut and paste, but use your own intellect to respond?

I would prefer to give you the best possible answer from one of the most leanred scholars we have in our time, rather than answer you with my limited knowledge.

[Tay_]

I have another question.

Let's say if I invented a 'good' innovation and people adopted this practice and praised me for it cause, from their view, it brought nothing but good, and then time passes by, and generation after generation come and go and this 'good' innovation is so widespread and people almost everywhere practice it.

But then it causes rifts among the Muslims, causing them to call each other names making them divide into groups, one practicing it and criticising others for not practicing it and the other cursing it and cursing those who practice it, and even make takfir of one another.

Would this 'good' innovation be still considered a 'good' innovation, even though it causes so much hatred and splits in the community?

The "act" itself wouldn't cause the cursing between muslims, but simply the muslims themselves who would have spiritual diseases in the heart which would lead them to disunite with the influence of shaytan (may Allah swt curse him)

[Islamic Creature]

here we go lets start cutting and pasting, Ya Allah
read this hadith that i posted in this page, this shows that a Bid'ah Hasanah dont exist and that the great man Abdullah Ibn Mas'oud (ra) says about Bid'ah Hasanah. http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10596&postcount=11

[Tay_]

here we go lets start cutting and pasting, Ya Allah
read this hadith that i posted in this page, this shows that a Bid'ah Hasanah dont exist and that the great man Abdullah Ibn Mas'oud (ra) says about Bid'ah Hasanah. http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10596&postcount=11

The answer that I pasted was given from a scholar who is an expert in the subject matter. I would sincerely advise you to read it and benefit from it inshallah.

If you choose not to read it, or if you read it and disagree with what is being said, that is entirely upto you.

I would hope that you aren't basing your conclusion of this matter based on the hadith that you stated?

Keep in mind the article I pasted is from a Shaykh who has ijazas from Shaykhs in Jordan and Syria (where traditional Islamic learning still exists), is an expert Shafi'i and Hanafi jurisprudence, legal methodology, tenets of faith and the science of hadith.

[Tay_]

Do you believe that the person or persons who innovate 'good' innovations have knowledge of the unseen?

What is the relationationship between those two things? What is the context of your question?

[Islamic Creature]

The answer that I pasted was given from a scholar who is an expert in the subject matter. I would sincerely advise you to read it and benefit from it inshallah.

If you choose not to read it, or if you read it and disagree with what is being said, that is entirely upto you.

I would hope that you aren't basing your conclusion of this matter based on the hadith that you stated?

Keep in mind the article I pasted is from a Shaykh who has ijazas from Shaykhs in Jordan and Syria (where traditional Islamic learning still exists), is an expert Shafi'i and Hanafi jurisprudence, legal methodology, tenets of faith and the science of hadith.


the hadith is enough to refute the batilness of innovation into the religion. so i dont care about what any shaykh or scholar of our time that says its ok, i rather take from the best of people than to take from a innovator NA3AM

[Tay_]

For something to be called a good bid'ah, a person would have to have knowledge of the future, correct?

No....how is that so?

[Tay_]

the hadith is enough to refute the batilness of innovation into the religion. so i dont care about what any shaykh or scholar of our time that says its ok, i rather take from the best of people than to take from a innovator NA3AM

So out of many hadiths, you have plucked one out and decided with that one hadith there is no such thing as bidah hasanah?

Are you suggesting Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller is an innovator? A reminder to yourself brother that slander is not permitted in Islam, and especially towards a scholar with such knowledge.

[Bobali]

theres no such thing as a "good bidah", because every innovation is misguidance and every misguidance leads to jahanam.

Prophet Sallellahu Alaihiwasallam said:

“The best speech is that embodied in the Book of Allah, and the best guidance is the guidance given by Muhammad. The most evil affairs are their innovations; and every innovation (BIDAAH) is an error. "

No: 1 – Sahih Muslim – Book of prayer – Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah, R.A

[Tay_]

theres no such thing as a "good bidah", because every innovation is misguidance and every misguidance leads to jahanam.

Prophet Sallellahu Alaihiwasallam said:

“The best speech is that embodied in the Book of Allah, and the best guidance is the guidance given by Muhammad. The most evil affairs are their innovations; and every innovation (BIDAAH) is an error. "

No: 1 – Sahih Muslim – Book of prayer – Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah, R.A

Looks like you didnt read the article by Shaykh Nuh either? He covered this aspect....

[Tay_]

The basis of a bid'ah hasana is to benefit the Muslims and bring them closer together, not cause rifts between them to the point that each group calls each other names. For one to call an act bid'ah hasana they would have to know that this act would benefit and unite the Muslims, right?

A simplier way of putting it... do you know what is gonna happen in the future? Do you know if this act (whatever it is) is gonna unite or divide the Ummah? You have no idea wether it will benefit the Ummah in the long run (in the future) do you?
The basis of something being good, is that it brings good, it does not cause problems, do you get me?

Back to my question. Would this 'good' innovation be still considered a 'good' innovation, even though it causes so much hatred and splits in the community?

This concept can be theorised in almost every issue that exists. As for your question, it is too broad, because firstly it depends on the issue, the context, the time at which it occurs, why, the people etc etc etc

[Shadower]

Title: Bid'ah Hasanah ("Good Innovations")

Question:

As Salaam Alaikum Wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatu

I have a question in the area of what is and isn't Bidaa. Over and over again I hear people terming certain actions as Bidaa. I am however confused. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a hadith by Prophet Muhammed (SAW) that says that anyone who introduces a new helpful hadith will be rewarded. If this is true, then why are all new inovations frowned upon. Jazak Allah Khul Khayer.


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly, we should know what "bid'ah" means according to Islamic teaching.

It is defined as: any invented way in religion that is aimed at worshipping or drawing closer to Allaah. This means anything that is not referred to specifically in Sharee'ah, and for which there is no evidence (daleel) in the Qur'aan or Sunnah, and which was not known at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his Companions. At the same time, it is quite obvious that this definition of religious inventions or innovations, which are condemned, does not include worldly inventions [such as cars and washing machines, etc. - Translator].

If your confusion has to do with an apparent contradiction between the hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurayrah and the hadeeth narrated by Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah, then let us examine these two reports and find out what they mean:

Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah al-Bajali (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever starts a good thing and is followed by others, will have his own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their reward in any way. Whoever starts a bad thing and is followed by others, will bear the burden of his own sin and a burden equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their burden in any way.'" (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, no. 2675. He said, This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth)

There is a story behind this hadeeth, which will explain what "whoever starts a good thing" means. Imaam Muslim reported this story from Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah, who also narrated the hadeeth itself. He said: "Some people from the Bedouin came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), wearing woollen garments. He saw that they were in bad shape and in desperate need, so he urged the people to give them charity. They people were very slow to respond, and it could be seen in his face (that he was upset). Then a man of the Ansaar brought a package of silver, then another came, and another and another, and his face was filled with joy. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever starts a good thing in Islam, and others do likewise after him, there will be written for him a reward like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their reward. Whoever starts a bad thing in Islam, and others do likewise after him, there will be written for him a burden of sin like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their burden.'" (Reported by Muslim, no. 1017)

Further explanation may be found in a report recorded by al-Nisaa'i, also from Jareer ibn 'Abdullah, may Allaah be pleased with him, who said: "We were with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) early one day, when some people who were almost naked (not dressed properly) and barefoot, with their swords by their sides, came to him. Most, if not all of them, were of (the tribe of) Mudar. The Messenger's face changed when he saw how poor they were (i.e., he became upset). He went into (his house), then he came out and ordered Bilaal to give the call to prayer. He led the people in prayer, then he addressed them, saying: 'O people, "be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person, and from him He created his wife, and from them both he created many men and women, and fear Allaah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship)" [al-Nisaa' 4:1].

"Fear Allaah, and keep your duty to Him. And let every person look to what he has sent forth for the morrow…" [al-Hashr 59:18].

Let a man give charity from his dinars, his dirhams, his clothing, his wheat or his dates - even if it is only half a date.' A man from the Ansaar brought a package which he could hardly carry in his hand, then another and another came, until there were two piles, of food and clothing, and I saw the face of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) beaming with joy. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever starts a good thing in Islam will have his own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting in the least from their reward, and whoever starts a bad thing in Islam will have to bear the burden of his own sin and a burden equal to that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their burden. (Reported by al-Nisaa'i in al-Mujtaba: Kitaab al-Zakaat, Bab al-Tahreed 'ala al-Sadaqah).

From the context of the story, it is clear that what is meant by the words "whoever starts a good thing (sunnah hasanah) in Islam" means: Whoever revives a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or teaches it to others, or commands others to follow it, or acts according to it so that others see him or hear about it and follow his example. This is also indicated by the hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurayrah, may Allaah be pleased with him, who said: "A man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and he urged the people to give him charity. A man said: 'I have such-and-such,' and there was no person left in the gathering who did not give something in charity to him, whether it was a large amount or a little. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever starts something good, and others follow his lead, will have a complete reward and a reward like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their reward. Whoever starts something bad, and others follow his lead, will bear a complete burden of sin, and a burden like that of those who followed him, without it detracting in the least from their burden. (Reported by Ibn Maaajah in al-Sunan, no. 204)

It should be clear from the above, with no room for doubt, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not allowing innovation in matters of deen (religion), nor was he opening the door to what some people call "bid'ah hasanah," for the following reasons:

1. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stated repeatedly that: "Every newly-invented thing is a bid'ah (innovation), every bid'ah is a going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire." (Reported by al-Nisaa'i in al-Sunan, Salaat al-'Eedayn, Baab kayfa al-Khutbah). Reports with the same meaning were narrated via Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) by Ahmad, via al-'Irbaad ibn Saariyah by Abu Dawud and via Ibn Mas'ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) by Ibn Maajah.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to say, when beginning a khutbah (sermon): "… The best of speech is the Book of Allaah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad. The worst of things are those which are newly-invented, and every innovation is a going astray…" (reported by Muslim, no. 867)

If every bid'ah is a going astray, how can some people then say that there is such a thing in Islam as "bid'ah hasanah"? By Allaah, this is an obvious contradiction of the statement and warning of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
2. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stated that whoever innovates something new in the deen (religion) will have his deed rejected, and Allaah will not accept it, as is stated in the hadeeth narrated by 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), who said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever innovates something in this matter of ours that is not a part of it will have it rejected.'" (Reported by al-Bukhaari, Fath al-Baari, no. 2697). How can anybody then say that bid'ah is acceptable and it is permitted to follow it?

3. When a person innovates something and adds to the deen something that does not belong to it, he is implying a number of bad things, each worse than the last, for example:

* That the religion is lacking, that Allaah did not complete and perfect it, and that there is room for improvement. This clearly contradicts the statement in the Qur'aan (interpretation of the meaning): "… This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion…" [al-Maa'idah 5:3]
* That the religion remained imperfect from the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the time when this innovator came along and completed it with his own ideas.
* That the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was "guilty" of either of two things: either he was ignorant of this "good innovation," or he knew about it but concealed it, thus letting his ummah down by not conveying it.
* That the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), his Companions and the righteous salaf (early generations) missed out on the reward of this "good innovation" - until this innovator came along and earned it for himself, despite the fact that he should say to himself, "If it was truly good, they would have been the first to do it."
* Opening the door to bid'ah leads to changing the deen (religion) and opens the way for personal whims and opinions, because every innovator implies that what he is introducing is something good, so whose opinion are we supposed to follow, and which of them should we take as a leader?
* Following bid'ah leads to the cancelling out of sunnah practices and the ways of the salaf. Real life bears witness that whenever a bid'ah is followed, a sunnah practice dies out; the reverse is also true.

We ask Allaah to save us from the misguidance of personal whims and from all trials whether they are open or secret. And Allaah knows best.


Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

[Tay_]

Clearly yet again there is a difference of opinion on this issue. The article I posted is much different to this particular one. Khayr inshallah

[Shadower]

The context of the hadeeth mentioned by Shaikh Nuh is mentioned in the fatwa above.

[Tay_]

The context of the hadeeth mentioned by Shaikh Nuh is mentioned in the fatwa above.

Well then it would be a matter of interpretation, and since Shaykh Nuh is a specialist in the science of hadith, he is fully qualified to state his opinion on this matter.

[aussiemu]

assalamu 'alaikum,

My question regarding bidah hasana that I haven't gotten a proper answer to yet is:

"Why is there a need for something that isn't mentioned in the Sunnah - when there is plenty of stuff in the Sunnah that we know of that we aren't doing?"

also

"You see alot of things saying e.g. read this this number of times and you'll get this - but how do they know this? Wouldn't this be considered lying? *If there is no hadith to back it up*"?

jazakallah khair.

wassalamu 'alaikum

[Islamic Creature]

Asbahaanee (d.535H) - rahimahullaah - said: "The sign of Ahlus-Sunnah is that they follow the Salafus-Saalih and abandon all that is innovated and newly introduced into the Deen." [Al-Hujjah fee Bayaanil Mahajjah 1/364] Abu Haneefah (d. 150H) (rahimahullaah) said: "Adhere to the athar (narration) and the tareeqah (way) of the Salaf (Pious Predecessors) and beware of newly invented matters for all of it is innovation" [Reported by As-Suyootee in Sawn al Mantaq wal-Kalaam]


Abdullah ibn Mas’ood said, “Verily, we emulate and do not initiate and
we follow and we follow and do not innovate.” Reported by al-Laalikaa’ee
in Usoolul-I’tiqaad, 1/86.

Aboo Bakr as-Siddeeq (radhiyallahu anhu) said,
“Indeed, I am a follower and I am not an innovator.” Reported in
Kitaabas-Sifaat of Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisee in the chapter: Fee
Fadaa’itil-Ittibaa and it is taken from the long khutbah of Aboo Bakr after
the pledge of allegiance, refer to At-Taareekh of at-Tabaree.

Imaam as-Saaboonee (d. 449H) said about Ahlus-Sunnah, “They
follow the Salafus-Saalih the Imaams and the Scholars of the Muslims,
and they cling to the firm deen that they clung to and to the clear truth.
And they hate Ahul-Bid’ah (the People of Innovation) who innovate into
the Deen that which is not from it. They do not love them and they do not
keep company with them. They do not listen to their sayings, nor sit with
them, nor argue with them about the Deen, nor debate with them.
Rather, they protect their ears from hearing their futility; things, which if
they pass through the ears and settle in the hearts, will cause harm and
cause doubts and wicked ideas to appear. And concerning this Allaah,
the Mighty and Majestic, sent down:
“And when you see people engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs,
then turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme.” [Soorah
al-An’aam (6):68] Risaalah fil-I’’tiqaad Ahlis-Sunnah Ashaabil-Hadeeth,
p. 100, of Imaam asSaaboonee.

[Ebu Abdirrahiym]

bismillah ...

mashaAllah what a thread! I'd like to add my 2 cents worth and explain my understanding of what a 'bid'ah hasanah' is, especially for those who can't be bothered reading the long posts.

linguastically i remember listening to a shaikh explain that bid'ah means, something new (an innovation) OR something that used to exist but no longer does and thus it is reintroduced and the latter definition was linked to the statement of 'umar (r.a.), i.e. something that used to exist at the time of the prophet (s.a.w) was no longer being practiced during that specific time and 'umar (r.a.) re-introduced it. That is to say, 'umar (r.a.) did not invent a new way of making 'ibada, he merely re-introduced what he learnt of the prophet (s.a.w) after it was forgotten/ neglected or not publicly known and Allah (s.w.t) knows best.

in regards to every bid'ah being a dalaala, this obviously refers to bid'ah in the religion not in other day affairs and dalaala here means going astray which is not just a simple sin but a lot more than that.

in regards to the hadith mentioning introducing something new, well this was explained above in one of the long posts very clearly so there is no need to dwell on that.

... but so why is introducing something into the religion is seen to be so catastrophic, there is a very simple answer.
Allah (s.w.t) stated in his book which means, "today i have completed my favour upon you and chose for you Islam as your religion". Note the word completed if you then go ahead an d introduce something new into the religion what you're in fact saying is, no Allah (s.w.t) did not complete this religion and I know a better way than Allah (s.w.t) to get closer to him (which would be the purpose of these innovations i would assume).

Also the prophet (s.a.w) specifically stated, from what i can remember of the saheeh hadith and this is in my own words so don't quote this hadeeth exactly "I have not neglected to mention to you anything that will draw you closer to Allah (s.w.t) except that I have informed you about it and I have not neglected to mention anything to you that will keep you away from the fire except that I have warned you about it."

and so this religion is complete and we know of all of the ways to get closer to Allah (s.w.t) and we know of all of the ways to keep away from the fire. If you then claim to know of another way that is not mentioned in the qur'an or the saheeh sunnah then you're in fact saying I know bettern than the prophet (s.a.w) and I know better than Allah (s.w.t) and we seek refuge in Allah (s.w.t) from such thoughts and actions.

Allah (s.w.t) knows best.

[Islamic Creature]

in regards to every bid'ah being a dalaala, this obviously refers to bid'ah in the religion not in other day affairs and dalaala here means going astray which is not just a simple sin but a lot more than that.


you know what was funny i was explaining the concept of Bid'ah to this brother and he started saying "what the hell are you talking about driving a car is bid'ah, flying a plane is bid'ah etc etc. then i told him only newly invented innovation in the religion not in our daily affairs.

[Tay_]

assalamu 'alaikum,

My question regarding bidah hasana that I haven't gotten a proper answer to yet is:

"Why is there a need for something that isn't mentioned in the Sunnah - when there is plenty of stuff in the Sunnah that we know of that we aren't doing?"

also

"You see alot of things saying e.g. read this this number of times and you'll get this - but how do they know this? Wouldn't this be considered lying? *If there is no hadith to back it up*"?

jazakallah khair.

wassalamu 'alaikum

I can provide you with a very basic explanation, but I have left it to the experts by forwarding the above questions to the Shaykhs at sunnipath.com to answer....inshallah once I get a response I'll post it

[Tay_]

you know what was funny i was explaining the concept of Bid'ah to this brother and he started saying "what the hell are you talking about driving a car is bid'ah, flying a plane is bid'ah etc etc. then i told him only newly invented innovation in the religion not in our daily affairs.

Shaykh Nuh mentioned this type of bidah in his article but since you believe he is an "innovator" my guess is you didn't read the article to get the explanation.

[aussiemu]

assalamu 'alaikum,

Can everyone keep to a civilised discussion without namecalling?

Tay - jazakallah khair. I look forward to the answers.

wassalamu 'alaikum

[Islamic Creature]

Shaykh Nuh mentioned this type of bidah in his article but since you believe he is an "innovator" my guess is you didn't read the article to get the explanation.

well maybe i read the article but don't agree with him sorry im not a blind follower. i guess you didn't read all the other post we posted up. when someone blind follows every single thing a shaykh says this is where the disease is, they won't accept anything else even if the truth came to them, Sabhaan-Allah.


This statement of the Prophet is recorded on the authority of many companions:

"What I fear most regarding you is the mistakes committed by Ulema, the disputation of hypocrites through Qu'ran and the misguided leaders."

[Ebu Abdirrahiym]

"You see alot of things saying e.g. read this this number of times and you'll get this - but how do they know this? Wouldn't this be considered lying? *If there is no hadith to back it



From what I know, most of these kind of narrations, for example, "if you recite this 1000 times Allah (s.w.t) will give you this or make you successful" etc... were actually fabricated by a man wanting to draw people back to islam.

He thought to himself, 'there are so many out there that are no longer close to Allah and are out to accumulate wealth and fame' and he falsely reasoned that perhaps these kind of practices would encourage them to return to their religion.

So you find many of these sayings attributed to one particular man of a particular sect and these sayings are classifed as mawdu' (fabricated) and are not attributed to the prophet (s.a.w).

In fact there is a hadith from the prophet (s.a.w) that states (from what i remember) "He who wrongfully attributes a statement to me, let him take his seat in the hellfire".

There is no need for these kind of fabrications as there are already similar hadith, like reciting 100 times "SubhanAllaahi wa bihamdihi" or "SubhanAllaahilaztheem" to have your sins forgiven or reciting "La hawla wa la quw-wata illa billaahi" which is a treasure amongst the treasures of paradise and these are authentic narrations.

Again I remember a speaker mentioning that from what he had read or heard, the authentic narrations only mentioned repetitions no greater than 100 and the rest above this number were generally not authentic (though the narration that encourages one to recite "la hawla wa la quw-wata illa billah" mentions the number 100 times and adds "or more").

Allah (s.w.t) knows best.

p.s. I believe Muhammad is joking Zwerf. I hope you weren't serious in your last post; if you weren't, next time use a smiley, so that we know :) [Muhammad needn't use a smiley because of the extreme parallels drawn betweem his statements, which make his humour obvious (I think :)) ]

[mariam]

I hope we are all being nice to eachother and have the best intentions at heart.. remember islam is peace and should not get annoyed with eachother.... peace be upon you all...

[Muhammad]

This concept can be theorised in almost every issue that exists. As for your question, it is too broad, because firstly it depends on the issue, the context, the time at which it occurs, why, the people etc etc etc

Ok, let's apply it to people celebrating the Prophet's birth.

[Tay_]

Ok, let's apply it to people celebrating the Prophet's birth.

The issue of Mawlid has been revisited on this forum a number of times, and if my memory serves me correct, the last thread regarding the topic of the Mawlid ended up being locked...it was a case of evidence being presented to support both sides, those for and against.

[Tay_]

well maybe i read the article but don't agree with him sorry im not a blind follower. i guess you didn't read all the other post we posted up. when someone blind follows every single thing a shaykh says this is where the disease is, they won't accept anything else even if the truth came to them, Sabhaan-Allah.


This statement of the Prophet is recorded on the authority of many companions:

"What I fear most regarding you is the mistakes committed by Ulema, the disputation of hypocrites through Qu'ran and the misguided leaders."

I am quite happy to "blind follow" any Shaykh whos teachers are linked all the way back to the Prophet (peace be upon him). It's called the ijaza system, and it has been around for over 1400 years. It is how traditional Islamic knowledge has been transmitted until this very day, from teacher to student and so forth, orginating to our most beloved. So I take my knowledge from those people who have been authorised to teach it to begin with alhamdulilah...this way I tread on the right path.

[aussiemu]

assalamu 'alaikum,

I don't think its a question of whether or not its bidah its about an issue that is meant to be a 'good innovation' yet divides people - so is it worth keeping?

wassalamu 'alaikum

[Tay_]

assalamu 'alaikum,

I don't think its a question of whether or not its bidah its about an issue that is meant to be a 'good innovation' yet divides people - so is it worth keeping?

wassalamu 'alaikum

Muslims are divided on things which aren't classified as "Bidah Hasanah" as it is, so I don't think that is the issue. It all comes back to the individual and how they are able to resolve their differences with others, and to realise that Islam isn't simply a black and white religion with literal interpretation of text with no room for difference of opinion. There are many articles and hadiths regarding differences of opinion that tell us that it is there and how to respect others.

[Islamic Creature]

I am quite happy to "blind follow" any Shaykh whos teachers are linked all the way back to the Prophet (peace be upon him). It's called the ijaza system, and it has been around for over 1400 years. It is how traditional Islamic knowledge has been transmitted until this very day, from teacher to student and so forth, orginating to our most beloved. So I take my knowledge from those people who have been authorised to teach it to begin with alhamdulilah...this way I tread on the right path.




O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination [The Noble Qur'an 4:59]


so you are saying that Nuh Ha Mim Keller is linked all the way back to the Prophet (saaw). lol because you seem to "Blind Follow" him. lets see what the four greatest Imaam's, may Allah be pleased with them all have to say about Blind Following.

And the four Imaams, may Allaah be pleased with them, all forbade the people from blindly following them in all that they may say, and this was an obligation upon them to do.

Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) said:

"When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."

"When I say something contradicting the Book of Allah the Exalted or what is narrated from the Messenger (saaws), then ignore my saying."


Imaam Maalik ibn Anas (rahimahullaah) said:

"Truly I am only a mortal: I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions: all that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah, accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, ignore it."


Imaam Shaafi'i (rahimahullaah) said:

"The sunnahs of the Messenger of Allah (saaws) reach, as well as escape from, every one of us. So whenever I voice my opinion, or formulate a principle, where something contrary to my view exists on the authority of the Messenger of Allah (saaws), then the correct view is what the Messenger of Allah (saaws) has said, and it is my view."


Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rahimahullaah) said:

"Do not follow my opinion; neither follow the opinion of Maalik, nor Shaafi'i, nor Awzaa'i, nor Thawri, but take from where they took."

"Do not copy your Deen from anyone of these, but whatever comes from the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions, take it; next are their Successors, where a man has a choice."

"Following (ittibaa') means that a man follows what comes from the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions; after the Successors, he has a choice."

"The opinion of Awzaa'i, the opinion of Maalik, the opinion of Abu Haneefah: all of it is opinion, and it is all equal in my eyes. However, the proof is in the narrations (from the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions)."

"Whoever rejects a statement of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) is on the brink of destruction."

the reason for these statements is because they cared about the muslims that come after them, If everyone were to blind follow these scholars there will be people going astray cause no matter how great a scholar or shaykh may be they still make mistakes and they are not infallible, for i Blind follow the infallible The Prophet (saaw) the greatest man to walk the earth (saaw) the best of Man (saaw) and his saying:

The messenger of Allah said: O mankind, I am leaving two things with you, if you cling to them you will never go astray. The Book of Allah and my way of life. [Al-Haakim and Al-Baihaqi].

[Tay_]

O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination [The Noble Qur'an 4:59]


so you are saying that Nuh Ha Mim Keller is linked all the way back to the Prophet (saaw). lol because you seem to "Blind Follow" him. lets see what the four greatest Imaam's, may Allah be pleased with them all have to say about Blind Following.

And the four Imaams, may Allaah be pleased with them, all forbade the people from blindly following them in all that they may say, and this was an obligation upon them to do.

I am suggesting that under Traditional Islam via the ijaza system that there is a lineage of teacher and student which goes back to the Prophet (p). Now Shaykh Nuh has been given ijaza by different Shaykhs from Syria and Jordan as he has been taught under the Traditional way of learning.

Also in relation to the sayings that you posted of the four great Imams (may Allah swt have mercy upon them) they were directed at their top students around them who had the knowledge, and were at a level where they were mujtahids. Those sayings weren't directed towardas the average person who isn't at their level.

So often those sayings are misquoted as the context is very rarely mentioned. But as I just said that is the context in relation to those sayings.

[aussiemu]

assalamu alaikum

Maybe stick to the topic of bidah hasanah and not start on the whole taqleed issue. I hate seeing discussions going around in circles on some familiar topics.

wassalamu alaikum

[Shadower]

The Ijaza system has not been thrown away so I do not see that as an issue that really needs an argument.

And there is nothing wrong with blind following one of the 4 madhabs as all their opinions are based upon the Quraan and Sunnah.

And then you have the advice of great Shuyukh such as Uthaymeen Rahimuhullah who did advice beginners in the Religion to choose a Shaikh who is firm upon the Quraan and Sunnah and to learn from him, that way you will not get confused.

[Shadower]

Good Bid'ah
Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Uthaymeen
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/aqeedah/0016.htm

Good Innovations
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan hafidhahullaah
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/aqeedah/0017.htm

[Tay_]

I think we need to come to the realisation as I mentioned earlier that there is a difference of opinion on this matter, and whoever wishes to take a particular path is entirely upto them in the end. I don't see everyone agreeing on this issue, just as people don't agree on many other issues. It is a matter of interpretation based on the main hadith stated, whether a person takes the literal meaning or whether a person breaks it down and anaylses the language behind it as Shaykh Nuh did based of the evidences within the Quran and Sunnah.