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مروة
20-Sep-2008, 11:26 PM
:salam:

I was wondering if anyone here knew how to distinguish between pure kohl/ithmid from cheaper varieties.

I've come across a few medical articles warning against certain popular brands of kohl or indian sumra as they claim to have very high lead contents.

I do not know enough about the type that the Prophet :saw: used to use and whether it is the same as the ones with the claims being made against, so i would appreciate if anyone could help insha Allah

aussiemu
20-Sep-2008, 11:45 PM
The ones that the warnings are against for e.g. the Hashmi brand aren't the pure ones and generally contain dangerous levels of lead.

From what I heard/read the real one is the brown/red colour - I got it in Saudi and the brother said this is the one that has the health benefits in it not the black colour.

مروة
20-Sep-2008, 11:58 PM
Do you remember how much it was being sold for in saudi?

aussiemu
21-Sep-2008, 12:16 AM
Not much. Somewhere between 10-20 riyals? It was in a little glass vial. I bought it in one of the perfume shops that sells 'oud etc across from the Prophet's mosque.

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
21-Sep-2008, 03:57 PM
Like perfume, they have many grades alhamdulillaah. I do not see lead in the ingredients of the ones I recently bought from Ahlan wa Sahlan but they are different from the ones from other Sub-Con shops as they do not beautify the eye in the sense that the others do (like eye-liner) but clear the eyes and are very hot. You can buy different grade. Two I bought were black and one was a reddish/brown colour.

Your tears flow so much that you would not have any 'make up' left if they were for that. Anothe thing is, the instructions tell you to follow the Sunnah by putting it on at night time.

Relevant to Meme's words - http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/44696/kohl

مروة
21-Sep-2008, 04:50 PM
Even the ones that do contain lead do not say so in the ingredients.

It seems that ithmid is very distinct to commercial kohl in colour and other properties.

Jazakum Allahu kheiran for your input

aussiemu
21-Sep-2008, 05:00 PM
assalamu alaikum

As Aboo Salman said I was told to put it on at night and sleep with it on.

wassalamu alaikum

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
21-Sep-2008, 06:43 PM
wa'alaikumus salaam wa'rahmatullaah,
I only use it for Medicinal purposes. The one I received as a gift from a friend that went to Hajj is also reddish/brown but not soothing or hot like the reddish/brown one I got from Ahlan wa Sahlan and does not clear anything from my eyes.

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
21-Sep-2008, 06:57 PM
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=856&main_cat_id=4

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=1270&main_cat_id=4

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
21-Sep-2008, 07:00 PM
The School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, The University of Nottingham, Nottingham, UK.

The use of kohl (surma) as eyeliner is a popular practice in Saudi Arabia and people firmly believe that it is safe to use. A total of 107 kohl samples (branded and unbranded) were collected from different regions of Saudi Arabia, and analysed for the presence of lead. In addition, aluminium and antimony levels were also determined. Lead levels up to 53% were detected in some kohl preparations, and some samples were found to contain camphor and menthol. The blood analyses of regular kohl users revealed a high lead concentration and relatively low haemoglobin levels. Due to the health risk, an official public awareness campaign is suggested to encourage the use of lead-free kohl.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15121438

مروة
21-Sep-2008, 07:00 PM
My mum just told me that in egypt there is : 'hot' kohl and 'cool' kohl.. Im guessing the 'hot' kohl is ithmid.

Sub7an Allah this topic is quite interesting, because when most people hear kohl they immediately think of the common black variety.

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
21-Sep-2008, 07:09 PM
My mum just told me that in egypt there is : 'hot' kohl and 'cool' kohl.. Im guessing the 'hot' kohl is ithmid.'Hot' and 'Cool' are the effects of the products I have from this company - http://www.khojati.com/default.asp
Which can be bought from - https://www.ahlanwasahlan.com.au/
But the KSA one, although also reddish/brown has not effect on the eyes that I could feel.

MiracleMind
21-Sep-2008, 08:15 PM
My mum just told me that in egypt there is : 'hot' kohl and 'cool' kohl.. Im guessing the 'hot' kohl is ithmid.

Sub7an Allah this topic is quite interesting, because when most people hear kohl they immediately think of the common black variety.

http://www.sunna.info/souwar/data/media/12/prophet_kohl_container.jpg

Meme,

If it looks like this one, then get one for me too.
I need to do more of his :saw: sunnah.

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
21-Sep-2008, 08:25 PM
http://www.sunna.info/souwar/data/media/12/prophet_kohl_container.jpg

Meme,

If it looks like this one, then get one for me too.
I need to do more of his :saw: sunnah.Is it real?

I also sent the company an email asking if they use lead in their products even though the product ingredients say not so. And Allaah knows best.

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
21-Sep-2008, 11:24 PM
I mean is what is being displayed in the Masjid real.

your sister
22-Sep-2008, 08:32 AM
mashALLAH so many sisters are so dedicated to this sunnah :rolleyes: <<(a skeptical smile)

sista2sista
24-Sep-2008, 09:32 AM
Why the skeptical smile sister?

مروة
10-Oct-2008, 09:21 AM
Why the skeptical smile sister?

I think our sister is referring to some sisters who wear kohl in public. Although using kohl is a sunnah, many scholars have said that a woman should not wear it in public.

For a more detailed answer you can look at:

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/67897/kohl
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...&main_cat_id=4

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
10-Oct-2008, 12:26 PM
They never emailed me back.

UmmRasheed
12-Oct-2008, 02:48 PM
High lead! Is the hashmi one ok?


:salam:

I was wondering if anyone here knew how to distinguish between pure kohl/ithmid from cheaper varieties.

I've come across a few medical articles warning against certain popular brands of kohl or indian sumra as they claim to have very high lead contents.

I do not know enough about the type that the Prophet :saw: used to use and whether it is the same as the ones with the claims being made against, so i would appreciate if anyone could help insha Allah

UmmRasheed
12-Oct-2008, 02:52 PM
wearing kohl for purifying the eyes is the ibnulqiyyims book of medicene and to put on at night before sleep....I would like to see where is says it is sunnah...i read this years ago but forgot where so if someone could please help me that would be good. In The Book of Manners, it talks about this issue.....maybe someone can post it here?

مروة
12-Oct-2008, 03:00 PM
wearing kohl for purifying the eyes is the ibnulqiyyims book of medicene and to put on at night before sleep....I would like to see where is says it is sunnah...i read this years ago but forgot where so if someone could please help me that would be good. In The Book of Manners, it talks about this issue.....maybe someone can post it here?


Pure kohl is beneficial to the eyes and is not harmful

Did Phrophet Muhammed (saw) apply surma (kohl) to his eyes? And are there any ahadeeth that narrate this? In the USA kohl is banned as it causes lead poisoning (as they say) can this be true? because I would like to apply it as well, as i suffer from poor vision.

Praise be to Allaah.

In a number of hadeeths it is narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used kohl and commanded others to do so. For example it is narrated in the Musannaf of Ibn Abi Shaybah, from the hadeeth of Anas, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to apply kohl to his right eye three times, and to his left eye twice. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah no. 633. And it was proven in Sunan al-Nasaa’i (5113) and Sunan Abi Dawood (3837) and elsewhere, from the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The best of your kohl is ithmid (antimony), for it makes the vision clear and makes the hair grow.”

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Kohl protects the health of the eyes and gives strength and clarity of vision, and cleanses they eye of bad substances. In addition to that some types of kohl also serve as an adornment and if it is applied before going to bed this is even better. And ithmid is more efficacious than other types of kohl.

Zaad al-Ma’aad, 4/281.

It says in al-Mughni: It is mustahabb to use kohl an odd number of times. (al-Mughni, 1/106).

It says in al-Majmoo’: With regard to using kohl an odd number of times, there is a difference of scholarly opinion. It was said that it should be applied an odd number of times to one eye and an even number of times to the other, so that the total number will be odd. The correct view of the scholars who examined this issue is that it should be applied an odd number of times to each eye. Based on this, the Sunnah is to apply it three times to each eye. (al-Majmoo’, 1/334).

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthyameen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: Some eye doctors say that kohl is harmful to the eyes and they advise not using it. What do you say to them?

He replied: Ithmid (antimony) is known to be very good for the eyes. I do not know anything about other types of kohl. Trustworthy doctors are the ones whom we should consult on this matter.

And it was said of Zarqa’ al-Yamaamah, who could see as far as three days, that when she was killed, they saw that all the veins of her eyes bore traces of this ithmid.

(Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, vol. 17; Chapter on medical treatment and visiting the sick).

From the above it is known that kohl is good and is not harmful to the eyes, rather it is beneficial. But there may be some kinds of modern, manufactured kohl that contain some chemical ingredients which may cause physical damage and remove some of the benefits of kohl. Hence people nowadays should look for pure kohl and not regard every kind of kohl available nowadays as beneficial. And Allaah knows best.

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
12-Oct-2008, 03:01 PM
There are a number of articles shared within the thread. Barakullaahu feeki!

مروة
12-Oct-2008, 03:40 PM
:salam:

What is interesting is that as an optometrist I cannot think of a route by which any toxic materials (supposedly) are in the kohl preparations can in fact enter the blood stream and cause toxicity.

I am trying to read more into this issue and I came across this:

Dr. Z. A. Mahmood Says:

I would like add few lines about the scientific basis of Kohl (Surma) apart from its religious point of view. The history and scientific studies so far done, indicate that the major constituent of Kohl is Galena, i.e., lead sulphide an inorganic form lead which is practically insoluble in aqueous (water) phase. I have gone through a number of such studies where Kohl is applied to both animal (rabbits) and human eyes regularly for about three months, but no difference in blood lead level was noted between pre and post application of Kohl. Confirming that lead present in Kohl can not be absorbed through transcorneal route. So there is no question of lead poisoning with the application of Kohl (Surma). Out of several reference, I would like to quote one reference here under the heading of ” Features of Poisoning”
The sub-headings 5.1.4 Ocular (Inorganic Lead)
Authors, Grainne Cullen, Alison Dines & Stoyko Kolev
” Lead sulphide (from the eye cosmetic surma) has caused minute conjunctival abrasions but no toxic injury to the eye ” - Statement released by the National Poisons Information Services (London Centre), Medical Toxicology Unit, Guy’s & St Thomas Hospital Trust, London - Monograph For UKPID - Lead (UK PID) page # 15 (March 1996).
In my opinion, even the minute conjuntival abrasion is not possible, if good quality Kohl (Surma) is used. Further, the dose which is applied into the eyes at one time is also very small and if quantified, it will be in microgram, irrespective of the high content of Galena (Lead sulphide) present in the whole container. I would urge here not to link the misuse Kohl (Surma) with it’s toxicity cause. Even misuse of water can lead to death. Thus based on this we can not stop using or storing water in our house.
Scientifically, I would classify the action and properties of Kohl into three different directions or categories:

1. Adsorptive - which is surface phenomena. Thus helps in cleaning the eyes from dust as well as other foreign matters invading the eyes.
2. Astringent - which is observed at the site of its application. Since Galena (Lead sulphide and the main constituent of Kohl) has an affinity for sulphur, therefore it combines with sulph-hydryl groups of the membrane and produces a local action due precipitation of proteins in a very low concentration.
3. Anti-infective - this property is due to the coagulation of specific inhibitory action of Galena with vital enzyme system of the cell. this phenomena is known as Oligodynamic Action.
Despite all these facts, however, surprisingly it has been stated by certain school of thoughts due to unknown reasons that Kohl (Surma) is or might be injurious to health due to the absorption of lead from eyes.
I have incorporated enough matter on the subject which can help a common man & women to understand the situation. Kohl (Surma) does not absorb through transcorneal route as it is practically insoluble in aqueous medium of the eye. Further, the alkaline nature of lachrymal restricts it’s dissociation and the positive intra-occular pressure further prevents the absorption or penetration. Thus the so-called Lead Toxicity due to application of Kohl (Surma) is not possible.

Husnia
13-Oct-2008, 12:29 AM
the kohl i got is the good stuff and im obsessed with it, my eyes are sensitive, i wear glasses and i have hay fever so wearing eye liner is irritating but this kohls great. my grandmother always supplies me with it whenever she goes Hajj. Dnt know how to distinguish BUT i know good kohl should feel light and it isnt dark like charcoal. Leads dark so theres one diff to look out 4..

kohls in fashion too so you can always ask places like hairhouse warehouse, priceline, bodyshop, or just email dolly magazine...

hope i helped :)

your sister
13-Oct-2008, 12:19 PM
lol @ dolly magazine , i m not 15 anymore

Husnia
13-Oct-2008, 06:23 PM
^excuse me im 17 and a half! :p, upgrade to cosmo or cleo...

Husnia
13-Oct-2008, 06:58 PM
^^ lol im not gona argue to that cos i know my wrong in reading em ...

~*Aboo Salmaan*~
13-Oct-2008, 06:59 PM
Ya Ukhtee, do not tell us such!

Husnia
13-Oct-2008, 07:04 PM
relax,, sorry for what its worth :rolleyes:

Abu Layla
14-Oct-2008, 05:04 PM
:salam:

Sister Husnia, I think what the brother is trying to say is that if you're doing something wrong, don't show or tell people that you are. Rather, you should hide it because Allaah has hidden it for you also. Jazaakillaahu khair.

Husnia
15-Oct-2008, 04:33 PM
thanks, i get it :)

Scottish Crystal
25-May-2009, 08:46 AM
Salams, I am very interested in using Ithmid, and would ideally like to use the purest form as possible. Where exactly in Saudi can I find this product? I understand that it is reddish/brownish in colour?
Many Thanks

Rahmah*
01-Aug-2009, 09:57 PM
Assalamu alaikum.

I remember when my brother tried to put kohl on it was hilarious he put it all around his eyes and looked like he got bashed lol.

fatima_43
01-Aug-2009, 10:03 PM
wa alaikum assalam rahmi,

lol that woulda been hilarious where's the pic?

Rahmah*
01-Aug-2009, 10:06 PM
Yeah so my brother can give me a black eye... aint worth it just for ur satisfaction :p jkz lol

fatima_43
01-Aug-2009, 10:09 PM
doesn't my happiness mean anything to you at all???? :P

Rahmah*
01-Aug-2009, 10:12 PM
Yeah it does, but dont i mean anything to you???????

fatima_43
01-Aug-2009, 10:14 PM
hmm my happiness or ur face?.. my happiness or ur face... it's a hard one .. jks

Rahmah*
01-Aug-2009, 10:20 PM
lol ok we so hijacked the thread...