Another abuse of power?! :-S

[naqabi]

I'm writing here coz I'm really, really shocked about how a mod can abuse their power so openly. I honestly can't believe how the Qasida Burda Thread existed while ppl were abusing the person who wrote it and dissapeared as soon as ppl started posting about the view of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jamaah on it which is CLEARLY that it is NOT shirk!

Nobody was fighting or being rude, everyone stated their point of view, and just because a mod had views different to some posters, the thread was removed? Mods r supposed to be unbiased, if someone finds it impossible to not act impulsively based on their own views, why r they even a mod?

And I mean this in the nicest possible way and I have nothing personal against this mod at all, but if someone consistently abuses their power then surely ordinary ppl have a right to protest?

[SuBMiSSioN]

Before I reply.. can I clarify something naqabi.. was that post of yours aimed at me?

[naqabi]

Yes sister, I am upset that u deleted a thread that u could simply have closed if u felt that it was getting out of line. There was alot of information there that could have provided ppl with a balanced view and allowed them to make up their own mind about the issue.

[SuBMiSSioN]

First of all, I wasn't the one who deleted it, so I'd appreciate it if you don't go around claiming that I'm abusing my powers. Let me remind you that I'm not the only mod on this forum. Nor am I doing this for the sake of the people, but rather for the sake of Allaah. Claiming that someone is abusing their powers, and in turn oppressing others, is quite a serious claim.

Secondly, your point that mods aren't meant to be bias is a futile one. We're all bias towards the beliefs we have. If one feels something is wrong, they're going to be bias towards that belief. It's the nature of forums, and the way we live our everyday lives. As mods, we're accountable for what we allow people to post. If something is posted that the mod feels will be held against them on the Day of Judgement, then you bet they're going to take action against that post.

[naqabi]

But why delete an entire thread if ur problem is just with a post? Why can't that thread just be closed and left there for ppl to read and make up their own mind?

And I sincerely apologise if it wasn't u who deleted it. That still doesn't justify the deletion though, perhaps the mod that did it can come here and explain? Or simply re-instate the thread but leave it locked?

[SuBMiSSioN]

Again, I didn't delete any of it. Not the thread, nor any posts within that thread, even though I had many a problem with a number of posts on that thread.

We'll just sit back and wait for the admin of this forum to explain why she deleted that thread. She'll explain and go into details.

[naqabi]

Okay, no probs. I think I seriously need some closure on this issue. I actually went off the forum and cried when it happened. I wrote what I wrote with sincerity and with all my heart and I'm sure so did others, and it was just so hurtful to have it all dissapear for no apparent reason...:(

I'll just sit back and wait for the explanation then...:in:

[aussiemu]

assalamu alaikum

I deleted the thread temporarily as it was pointed out to me to be troublesome and to have a look at it. As I had to go do something I deleted it till I could check it. After I'm done reading it I will put it back up if there is nothing wrong in it.

As Faten said we all have biases and so do the mods. There is no such thing as 'no bias'. I am fully biased to whatever I believe is right or wrong as I am sure you are too. If I believe the Qasida Burda has shirk in it and you believe otherwise then we both have a bias towards an opinion. The issue of shirk to me (and I'm sure to you) is very serious so if anyone is promoting anything that may be shirk then it is not an issue that I take lightly as I will have to answer for it.

If you really wanted to make a point regarding Submission and her supposed abuse of poweryou were best to have PM'd me directly rather than making a thread about her abusing her powers (which I don't believe she does).

wallahu 'alam

wassalamu alaikum

[naqabi]

Jazakallah Kheir for ur response sis. I posted the thread here because I wasn't sure of where else to go about this issue. And I had no idea if u were around or not, so it could be that I send a pm and get no response for days if u r busy or simply not online.

[TAS]

assalamu alaikum

I deleted the thread temporarily as it was pointed out to me to be troublesome and to have a look at it. As I had to go do something I deleted it till I could check it. After I'm done reading it I will put it back up if there is nothing wrong in it.

As Faten said we all have biases and so do the mods. There is no such thing as 'no bias'. I am fully biased to whatever I believe is right or wrong as I am sure you are too. If I believe the Qasida Burda has shirk in it and you believe otherwise then we both have a bias towards an opinion. The issue of shirk to me (and I'm sure to you) is very serious so if anyone is promoting anything that may be shirk then it is not an issue that I take lightly as I will have to answer for it.

Waleikum Salam

Can you please state what exactly about it was troublesome?

The fact that some people spoke in a lowly and disgustingly arrogant and a cheap manner about the author (not to mention utterly ignorant of BASIC Islamic teachings regarding the subject they were talking about itself)... or the fact that they were answered to in the same tone in one post?

The only mods I know on here are submission and you sister, and to be honest, regardless of your personal convictions, I find you VERY respectful of people and I'm not saying this to earn some brownie points. See below :)

However, people's causes and beliefs are above themselves. A Muslim doesn't need to be told that.

Its fully understandable that you will be biased to your own beliefs and convictions.

Personally I would never operate a forum called "AussieMuslims" OR "MuslimVillage" coz then I'd know to be just and fair, I'd have to accomodate the viewpoints of people I do not agree with. I would run something like SunniVillage or something.

However, I dont think its too much to ask you to just state openly what IS and what ISN'T acceptable on the forums. We always get an answer that "its discretionary"

Although I personally find it very hard to digest that the mods and admins might not be "full-on" with any one school of thought out of Sufis/wahabis/shias at a personal level and follow a hybrid methodology from all of these 3 major sects, I can understand this "discretionary" approach of allowing certain things and not allowing certain others when they run a forum generically titled "AussieMuslims".

However, its not too much to ask WHAT that discretionary approach is.

The issue of musical nasheeds for instance has been made clear.

Like I said, for us Muslims, our aqaid and our cause is above ourselves.

It is perfectly understandable that if you believe something to be right, you will promote that and will put a stoppage to what you believe to be falsehood.

THAT, HOWEVER, does not mean that on a forum called "AussieMuslims" some of us have to put up with reading disgustingly and disgracefully cheap language and accusations of shirk used at us and the scholars of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah. In such an instance, you ARE guilty and responsible of a bias if you let such actions go unchecked, which WAS the case on that thread (although I do realise those posts were from 2006- but since they existed on the thread, they were responded to, and in kind)!

You might decide that musical nasheeds are not allowed or Qasida Burdah is not allowed etc and leave it at that, but to tolerate active abuse of such and expecting the other party to not respond in kind IS bias and injustice, UNLESS & UNTILL you state officially that this is not AussieMuslims, but rather AussieSalafis or AussieSufis or AussieShias and the rest are not welcome here.

Just like you would stand up for what you believe to be right, others will too and when they find the minarets of knowledge in the ummah being spoken of in a disgracefully cheap manner, you bet they will be responded to in kind. Follow the thread and see how the thread proceeded and who said what!

I know I dont use the most flowery of language at times and with certain people. However I personally believe I am justified in such. There are other wahabis/salafis (or at least people who I think are wahabi/salafi) on the forum who are respectful in their exchange, despite differences with others. People like Palo Soldier, Abu Layla, Omar, Cheesegirl, Umm Binyameen, WarrEnib and Submission herself amongst others. Some others think just because they disagree, they have the right to use cheap language at scholars of the Ahlus Sunnah and hold the ummah at large in contempt and utterly arrogant of their so called [limited] knowledge! I know they dont use swear words or say explicitly that they are Allah's gift to the world, but their attitude stinks of it from a mile away!

Anyways,

1) it would be appreciated, if you can let the folks know on some sticky in the general section or something what exactly is accepted or not. Right now its quite ambiguous

2) IF the thread IS restored, can you please at least leave my second post in it regarding knowledge of the unseen topic, which was one of the "shirk" objections raised (altho I'd like the first one to stay too because it was responding in kind to the disrespectful and arrogant comments of the people who posted earlier on in the thread, if theirs stay)... and may I request to delete the posts disrespectful to the author and the rest of the BULK MAJORITY of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah commoners and scholars who hold the author in high esteem AND also do not see anything wrong with the Qasida Burda

3) Hope you sisters know this was said very firmly but not confrontationally and antagonistically. It was objective and rational and practical (to me at least). Your respectful behaviour to forum members is much appreciated, regardless whatever your personal convictions might be.

[naqabi]

I must say I was appalled to see that particular post sitting there (by Ibn Yusuf) and said so both in that thread and in another. I was just about to click the report button on it when the entire thread just vanished in front of me. :-S.

I hope to see a fair resolution to this issue inshallah. Jazakallah Kheir to the sisters for actually responding to my concern...I honestly half expected this thread to miraculously dissapear as well...:-S

I'm really glad it hasn't though. :-D

[SuBMiSSioN]

Personally I would never operate a forum called "AussieMuslims" OR "MuslimVillage" coz then I'd know to be just and fair, I'd have to accomodate the viewpoints of people I do not agree with. I would run something like SunniVillage or something.
SunniVillage isn't much different to AussieMuslims. Claiming you're Sunni will hold the exact same connotations as one who claims they are Muslim. Just as you'd have to accommodate for those who you don't agree with on a 'muslim' based forum, you'd also have to do the same on this forum you'd run, because based on your line of thought, even those you disagree with say that they're from Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah. There's no difference between the two titles. If we were to run this forum as 'SunniMuslims' we'd still get the same backlashes we get now. The sufis are going to say that the salafis aren't from the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, and vice versa. Just as they both do with the title of Muslim.

I feel like I'm going 'round in circles trying to explain myself, so I hope I'm making sense in the message I'm trying to convey.


It is perfectly understandable that if you believe something to be right, you will promote that and will put a stoppage to what you believe to be falsehood.

THAT, HOWEVER, does not mean that on a forum called "AussieMuslims" some of us have to put up with reading disgustingly and disgracefully cheap language and accusations of shirk used at us and the scholars of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah. In such an instance, you ARE guilty and responsible of a bias if you let such actions go unchecked, which WAS the case on that thread (although I do realise those posts were from 2006- but since they existed on the thread, they were responded to, and in kind)!

I don't think I was a mod back in 2006, and I don't even personally recall that thread, but even if I was, and I let it go.. We never said we weren't bias. We have made it clear time and again we are bias, and will continue to be so, regardless of what others think. If the mods think that the poem is full of shirk, based on what they've been taught, then they will not see anything wrong with the comments on a thread labelling that poem as shirk. Just as you would allow such a post to exist on your (imaginary) forum, I'm sure you'd also allow people to speak out against our scholars of Ahulus Sunnah wal Jama'ah who say that it contains shirk. It's something that works both ways, and something which will be found on any forum where the people who are firm in their beliefs will be firm in the way they moderate their forum.


You might decide that musical nasheeds are not allowed or Qasida Burdah is not allowed etc and leave it at that, but to tolerate active abuse of such and expecting the other party to not respond in kind IS bias and injustice, UNLESS & UNTILL you state officially that this is not AussieMuslims, but rather AussieSalafis or AussieSufis or AussieShias and the rest are not welcome here.

Again.. there is NO difference in labelling a forum AussieMuslims or AussieSalafis. It's almost like saying don't say you're a Muslim based forum, because you're not. You're a salafi based forum, and salafis aren't Muslims.


Some others think just because they disagree, they have the right to use cheap language at scholars of the Ahlus Sunnah and hold the ummah at large in contempt and utterly arrogant of their so called [limited] knowledge! I know they dont use swear words or say explicitly that they are Allah's gift to the world, but their attitude stinks of it from a mile away!

The knowledge people have is knowledge passed down from the scholars they follow. To say that this knowledge is limited or wrong or full of arrogance, then there is no difference in you saying that, and in the way that person responded in that thread regarding the poem.

[cheesegirl]

Again.. there is NO difference in labelling a forum AussieMuslims or AussieSalafis. It's almost like saying don't say you're a Muslim based forum, because you're not. You're a salafi based forum, and salafis aren't Muslims.

I think the point the brother was trying to make was based on inclusion/exclusion, not that salafis are not Muslim.

As in, the name AussieMuslims is inclusive of all Muslims - sufi/salafi/ashari etca, whereas a forum called AussieSalafis excludes sufis/asharis etc.

[Teflon]

The poem is a poem of shirk and exaggeration. I don't see why it should be allowed to be posted here. Many scholars have replied to it and pointed that fact out and not all of them, like Shawkani, would be considered salafis by any stretch of the imagination.

[SuBMiSSioN]

Akh.. this is just going to open up a huge can of worms that I don't think needs to be opened.

AussieSalafis isn't going to be any different to AussieMuslims because depending on whoever is behind the running of the forum, they're going to be biased towards the beliefs they follow. AussieMuslims run by salafis is still AussieMuslims. The people behind the scenes label themselves as Muslims before they even think about labelling themselves as salafis.

The exclusions are based on what we feel goes against Islaam - not based on what we feel goes against Salafism. That's the main difference that people need to understand.

[TAS]

SunniVillage isn't much different to AussieMuslims. Claiming you're Sunni will hold the exact same connotations as one who claims they are Muslim. Just as you'd have to accommodate for those who you don't agree with on a 'muslim' based forum, you'd also have to do the same on this forum you'd run, because based on your line of thought, even those you disagree with say that they're from Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah. There's no difference between the two titles. If we were to run this forum as 'SunniMuslims' we'd still get the same backlashes we get now. The sufis are going to say that the salafis aren't from the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, and vice versa. Just as they both do with the title of Muslim.

Point taken. Was making a point saying, I'll make it know properly WHO and WHAT is welcome on the forums and WHO and WHAT is not, rather than hiding behind ambiguities when confronted with a situation like this.


I feel like I'm going 'round in circles trying to explain myself, so I hope I'm making sense in the message I'm trying to convey.

I don't think I was a mod back in 2006, and I don't even personally recall that thread, but even if I was, and I let it go..

Was responding to Aussiemu's post... so I dunno why you have to explain yourself here.


We never said we weren't bias. We have made it clear time and again we are bias, and will continue to be so, regardless of what others think. If the mods think that the poem is full of shirk, based on what they've been taught, then they will not see anything wrong with the comments on a thread labelling that poem as shirk. Just as you would allow such a post to exist on your (imaginary) forum, I'm sure you'd also allow people to speak out against our scholars of Ahulus Sunnah wal Jama'ah who say that it contains shirk. It's something that works both ways, and something which will be found on any forum where the people who are firm in their beliefs will be firm in the way they moderate their forum.

Now you're talking. As long as you don't hide behind diplomatic ambiguities and say openly what your stance is, its ok.

As for the nonsensical accusations of shirk (you think the poem is shirk, we think your accusations are nonsensical... fair?), they were dealt with on the thread itself.


Again.. there is NO difference in labelling a forum AussieMuslims or AussieSalafis. It's almost like saying don't say you're a Muslim based forum, because you're not. You're a salafi based forum, and salafis aren't Muslims.

What did you have for breakfast and what are you going on about? See what cheesegirl said.


The knowledge people have is knowledge passed down from the scholars they follow. To say that this knowledge is limited or wrong or full of arrogance, then there is no difference in you saying that, and in the way that person responded in that thread regarding the poem.

Once again... what did you have for breakfast and what are you going on about? I am talking about the kind of disgusting arrogance displayed by the likes of teflon below. I'm talking about commoners on the internets who speak without knowledge.


I think the point the brother was trying to make was based on inclusion/exclusion, not that salafis are not Muslim.

As in, the name AussieMuslims is inclusive of all Muslims - sufi/salafi/ashari etca, whereas a forum called AussieSalafis excludes sufis/asharis etc.

Thanks.


The poem is a poem of shirk and exaggeration. I don't see why it should be allowed to be posted here. Many scholars have replied to it and pointed that fact out and not all of them, like Shawkani, would be considered salafis by any stretch of the imagination.

... so you say... who are you and why am I to take your word? are you a scholar? what is your worth in Islamic learning?

If you bring one name who according to you isnt a salafi who doesnt endorse the poem, do you want to see the long list of scholars names who do?

who are the rest of these "many" scholars? give names and dont hide behind ambiguities!

[SuBMiSSioN]

Once again... what did you have for breakfast and what are you going on about? I am talking about the kind of disgusting arrogance displayed by the likes of teflon below. I'm talking about commoners on the internets who speak without knowledge.
You're saying his post is full of arrogance.. and that he has no knowledgehow? Because he says the poem contains shirk? Where did he get that information from? Being a layman, he got it from those with knowledge, those scholars who themselves say it's shirk. No one here is giving their own 2c opinions. The belief comes from the scholars, so claiming that someone who says it's shirk is arrogant or that they have no knowledge, is claiming that the scholars who say it's shirk are also arrogant and also have no knowledge. That goes against the whole nature of what you're up in arms about.

[Khaled]

Righteo. Everyone go to sleep

[naqabi]

Oh honestly ppl, can we not argue the issue out on this thread, the whole debate already exists on the missing thread, I feel like I'm watching ppl re-invent the wheel! Let's wait for sis Aussiemuslims to do what she needs to do shall we?

[TAS]

You're saying his post is full of arrogance.. and that he has no knowledgehow? Because he says the poem contains shirk? Where did he get that information from? Being a layman, he got it from those with knowledge, those scholars who themselves say it's shirk. No one here is giving their own 2c opinions. The belief comes from the scholars, so claiming that someone who says it's shirk is arrogant or that they have no knowledge, is claiming that the scholars who say it's shirk are also arrogant and also have no knowledge. That goes against the whole nature of what you're up in arms about.

There is a subtle difference... if a person of knowledge says something, he gives evidence for it and that evidence can be accepted or refuted, etc. A commoner talking like this IS arrogance.

As far as scholars and their knowledge is concerned, then there are sufi scholars who also accuse salafi scholars of various things and vice versa. So will you tolerate such posts if someone said that Albani made GRAVE mistakes and blunders in the science of hadith?

This was my point. If you are saying ALL Muslims are welcome on the forum, that kind of talk just cant be allowed and IS A MAJOR INJUSTICE if only one side has their say. You have full rights to say we dont allow the Burda or nasheeds with music etc. BUT thats as far as it goes. You SIMPLY CAN'T let people call other scholars (who by the way are the bulk majority of the Ahlus Sunnah) as rubbish and shirk thumpers or other such names. Sure theres scholars who say such, but then they don't shut down the doors of dialogue, something which IS done here many a time. They allow questioning and cross questioning and refuting and counter refuting and so on.

If you let comments like the ones on that thread fly, you JUST CANT expect others (who you say are welcome on the forums) to cop it with a smile (and when they respond in kind and/or give ROCK SOLID refutations, the threads are deleted or locked, even though what we SHOULD be promoting is the truth REGARDLESS OF GROUPIE-ISM)! Thats just preposterous!

Im not up in arms about anything. I was firm but respectful in my initial post and still am.

The only solution is for you to say such and such IS and ISN'T allowed and leave it at that.

Seriously, how hard is it to list out what IS and IS NOT welcome on the forums:

1) Nasheeds with Music - No (Alhamdulillah this one isn't ambiguous)
2) Burda - Yes/No
3) Mawled thread - Yes/no
4) Hamza Yusuf lecture - yes/no
5) Ashari/Maturidi aqidah explanations vs salafi aqidah - yes/no
... etc.

I understand the mods and admins can't say stuff like "shia are not welcome" or "sufis are not welcome" or "salafis are not welcome" but they CAN talk about individual points. Shouldn't be so hard.

Once again, can we please focus on arriving at the TRUTHFUL conclusions rather than focusing on whats sufi or salafi or what ever. As long as something is based on firm evidence, it shouldn't be a problem to anyone. Right?

Thats why I want my second post on the thread back on. It is regarding the bogus accusation of prophets of Allah not posessing knowledge of the unseen.

[naqabi]

That's a very valid point. Jazakallah Kheir. Allowing open debate on disputed matters is the only way that some sort of resolution can be reached, unless such matters have rules governing what can or cannot be discussed, in which case BOTH sides either can or cannot discuss the issue. That IS fair on both sides of any issue/debate.

[Ahmad]

Righteo. Everyone go to sleep

http://www.spareroom.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/Wrong-on-Internet.jpg

[Ariel]

I personally do not know about the thread which has created this furore... but I would like to make a general comment regarding the forum. From my understanding this forum and any other forum is a meeting place of minds... a place for discussions and the expression of opinions. Whether the moderators have their own biases or not should not interfer with the process of a thread unless abuse or inappropriate conduct is displayed. On any given topic all perspectives should be allowed to be expressed and individuals afforded the opportunity to contribute to and/ or come to their own conclusion regarding the topic.

Instead of deleting a thread is it not possible to have a warning in bold of the offence taken place, a reminder to fear allah and for individuals to present their evidences clearly. To speak without knowledge and evidence is to speak without purpose. Deleting the thread will not benefit anyone... People need to be exposed to both sides of the coin. It is healthy and necessary in my humble opinion to have open discussion between individuals of different schools of thought...if someone is not necessarily walking that straight path you are on is it not better to hold their hand and bring them toward you than to give up on them and walk away. I can understand the predicament the moderators are in when the are confronted with rhethoric particularly about the nature of Allah... nevertheless regardless of the nature of the topic and what is being expressed by various members.... I'm sorry I do not believe you as a moderator will be responsible for what others post.
If the moderators use their own standards and biases to monitor the forum no one will feel safe or keen to express their ideas particularly if threads continue to be deleted as this in particular may discourage members to continue to participate.
By the way this is not an attack on the moderators... I truly do appreciate the difficulty involved in your job... May Allah reward you for all your efforts to keep the forum pleasing to Allah.

[TAS]

^ very well said.

My point exactly... unless the forum is labelled as exclusively for one school of thought... discussions of whats what should be allowed along with refutations and counter refutations. The mods and admins can hold on to their personal beliefs and indeed should contribute to those threads and defend and propagate their beliefs or offer explanations and counter refutations to those who are refuting them.

However, other than the one mawled thread some time back (which also was eventually locked because some people dont like being asked questions about their position either) what happens on topics like this is one side gets to say what they think is right, and the minute a refutation is offered or someone responds in kind to some people's tones, the thread suddenly becomes problematic and below adab/whatever (its not considered below adab/problematic when the other party is making the first move... its always below adab/problematic when they are responded in kind or refuted).

This kind of silencing people is what causes nonMuslims to talk nonsense about us too.

Whats the aim of a forum other than a dialogue and meaningful interaction anyways?

Anyways lets wait till the admin comes back and says what IS & ISN'T welcome on the forum.

They've refused to say earlier regarding sects... as in sufis, salafis, shias... regarding who is welcome or not.

Maybe they can list out what SPECIFIC topics are allowed and what are not, like I asked.

Personally I think as long as theres no general BS stuff like spam or some nonMuslim abusing Islam or total anarchy and unlimited cursing and swearing etc or some totally nonsensical position of some lunatic islamophobes like at answeringislam or other such websites where they have been refuted and are speaking blatant lies and we simply couldnt bother refuting them again, anything should be allowed.

You have NOTHING to fear if you have the truth on your side. If you are truthful, you CAN & WILL defend your position. However, the truth sometimes might be ugly and SEEM like its problematic or below adab.

Like you said sasazuzu, I too think the mods and admins are respectful people and respect the forum members. AND I would like to reiterate they're MUCH better than some of the other forums I have been to. At least they dont let their personalities get in the way and welcome criticism, at least at a personal level (as mods).

However I think they're mistaken in their attitudes towards other schools of thoughts. If you believe in some thing and stand up for it and have the truth on your side, what do you have to fear? You are not answerable to Allah for someone else's belief. Sure you can argue that you may/will be held responsible for aiding him in spreading it thru your forum... but then this is where YOUR truth comes in... you have the truth on your side... right? Bring it forward and slam the guys falsehood. Its no different from real life. As long as you speak against falsehood, the medium is irrelevant.

Sure he might not accept... but then the forum will contain the correct and the incorrect position for others to see, exactly as in real life, if you organize a meeting and someone said something wrong, you are not responsible for them just because you organised the meeting. You can and should speak what you think is right. As humans, we can only disseminate knowledge. Only Allah delivers guidance and only those He guides are the guided ones.

Anyways... lets see what the admin sis Aussiemu says. And honesty demands if a certain topic is not welcome, be it Burda or mawled or wahabi interpretation of aqaid etc. (which is FAIR), it should be made clear BOTH for AND against arguments on that topic are not allowed.

If on a certain topic only one view, be it for or against, is allowed and the other one is not, then that IS UNFAIR & INJUSTICE on the part of admins and mods. Plus like I said, what have you to fear if the truth is on your side?

I WILL reiterate --- hope the posts on here as seen as constructive criticizm for the forum and nothing personal. I personally do appreciate you 2 sisters respectfulness to the members and humility in general. But principles are principles and justice is justice.

[Teflon]

If you bring one name who according to you isnt a salafi who doesnt endorse the poem, do you want to see the long list of scholars names who do?

Is ash-Shawkani a salafi scholar?

Anyway, the words in the Burdah are so obviously shirk that only a Muslim whom Allah has denied understanding of His Religion could fail to see it as so. For example, he says that he will take refuge in Muhammad (saw) from calamities. Who in their right mind believes it is allowed to pray to Muhammad (saw) and call on him instead of Allah in times of distress.

How is the Burdah who exaggerates and speaks of praying to the Prophet (saw) any different from catholic prayers which invoke the name of another prophet (as) and call on him for aid and comfort?

[Ariel]

dialogue on this issue should be encouraged if anything. To engage in shirk is a grave sin and those touching this topic should be very careful in what the say. I personally can see what Teflon is trying to explain... Having said this I am not aware of the poem or the differing opinions.

[naqabi]

Is ash-Shawkani a salafi scholar?

Anyway, the words in the Burdah are so obviously shirk that only a Muslim whom Allah has denied understanding of His Religion could fail to see it as so. For example, he says that he will take refuge in Muhammad (saw) from calamities. Who in their right mind believes it is allowed to pray to Muhammad (saw) and call on him instead of Allah in times of distress.

How is the Burdah who exaggerates and speaks of praying to the Prophet (saw) any different from catholic prayers which invoke the name of another prophet (as) and call on him for aid and comfort?

Bro Teflon, this issue has already been explained in that missing thread, the translation is unfortunately a poor reflection of what was being said, that line refers to ppl turning to the Prophet (SAW) for intercession on the Day of Judgment. This is why lay ppl shouldn't be discussing something based on translations etc when they have no knowledge of the depth of it's meaning. And like I said before, we need to wait for that thread to come back in order to discuss the Qasida Burda itself as this thread is not the correct place for it.

[cheesegirl]

naqabi, that point is moot because teflon is referring to what scholars have said, he is not making up his own analysis.

(Teflon is a he, right??)

[TAS]

Is ash-Shawkani a salafi scholar?

Anyway, the words in the Burdah are so obviously shirk that only a Muslim whom Allah has denied understanding of His Religion could fail to see it as so. For example, he says that he will take refuge in Muhammad (saw) from calamities. Who in their right mind believes it is allowed to pray to Muhammad (saw) and call on him instead of Allah in times of distress.

How is the Burdah who exaggerates and speaks of praying to the Prophet (saw) any different from catholic prayers which invoke the name of another prophet (as) and call on him for aid and comfort?

lol... ask for the thread to open up and we can have a 2-way dialogue there... i assure you, your hormone-jumping won't go to waste...

right now you're only talking to a wall... because the mods and admins have admitted they have a bias... so if I speak in a similar tone, it will be deleted, besides this is not the thread fro it... like I said, if you feel you have the truth on your side, you dont need to suppress dialogue

[Tay_]

Assalamu Alaikum

Having been on this forum for almost 5 years now, ive obviously seen alot of different things, alot of different people etc etc. I speak as a "senior" here; For those seeking black and white answers as to what is acceptable and not acceptable for now, just use the forum rules as a guide, until things become clear in terms of the "hot topics". The rules are so simple to follow, but they're often forgotten.

It's nothing new in terms of how a practising Muslim's character should be, it should came natural for a person, as it's something that should be part of one's daily life.

There are obviously issues that have been raised and that will continue to be raised over and over again. That is expected, as the forum grows with new members. Those same issues will almost always end up resulting in a deadlock. Trying to out copy and paste someone to make your point isn't going to help. Its much like the process of doing this:

:banghead:

Remember the deen is best learnt from a Shaykh or Shaykha. I've said this before, I certainly would hope that people do not use the forum as a basis for learning their deen on a sole basis. No disrespect to the knowledge provided here, but in the end there is only so much that can be learnt.

I say this not to brag about myself, I've never been banned or moderated during my time here. Adhere to the rules and you will never have an issue. You may well disagree with the mods; the mods and I have had our fairshare of disagreement, but never at any stage has there been any disrespect between them and I (unless they talk about me behind my back ;) )

Just continue to provide feedback and use the tools available in raising issues. I can rant and rant on about this, but ill keep it short. Adhere to the forum rules (http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/announcement.php?f=10); if everyone adheres to these rules, regardless of whether one considers themselves to be a Salafi, Sufi, Shi'ite etc etc then you will find life on the forum becomes pretty simple:

I hope this helps

Wasalam

[naqabi]

naqabi, that point is moot because teflon is referring to what scholars have said, he is not making up his own analysis.

(Teflon is a he, right??)

I haven't seen him provide any evidence that what he's saying comes from a scholar...looks to me like he's just reading the translation and making his decisions based on that. Haven't seen him post up any fatwas or anything...anyway this thread is not for this discussion...we'll wait till the actual thread turns up...

[Khaled]

Pick one -

http://blog.tylerbell.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/20070622_kitkat1.jpg

[TAS]

For those seeking black and white answers as to what is acceptable and not acceptable for now, just use the forum rules as a guide, until things become clear in terms of the "hot topics". The rules are so simple to follow, but they're often forgotten.

The mods have admitted to a bias. The forum rules apply to both pro and anti parties.

If a certain topic is not allowed, both pro and anti sides to that topic should not be allowed, otherwise its just injustice, considering that they adamantly say they are neither a sufi form nor a salafi forum nor a shia forum. Simple as that.

[TAS]

2. Rudeness, personal attacks, swearing, slander and disrespectful behaviour will not be tolerated.

4. No takfir.

5. No slandering scholars.

It seems these rules only apply to some people and not to some others.

Rule number 2, it seems for most people (btw this one includes sufis, shia, salafis, Muslims, nonMuslims, all) only relates to outright foul language but "rudeness", "personal attacks" and "disrespectful behaviour" in the form of underhanded and veiled insults like calling a group of Muslims as "insincere" and ijtihadi rulings of scholars as "rubbish" is ok.

Rules 4 & 5 don't seem to apply to those on the mods side of the bias, where people like teflon and Musa are free to accuse the BULK MAJORITY (if not all) of the scholars and the commoners of the Ahlus Sunnah, who endorse the Burda, of shirk - as is the case here.


6. No speaking about Allah without knowledge. If you want to put an answer - refer it to the scholars. Islam is not based on peoples personal opinions.


That bolded bit was just circumvented by saying that people only relay what scholars tell them, which at times can dive into violations of rule 5. Once again, when some other people relay what scholars tell them, it leads to situations like this.


You may well disagree with the mods; the mods and I have had our fairshare of disagreement, but never at any stage has there been any disrespect between them and I

I can say the same, although I cant say that for some of the other members. My issue with the mods is on a lack of definition. I appreciate their respect and understand they can't really herd a bunch of people on the internet. BUT As the forum grows, we need more defined and substantive rules. Needless to say, they need to be just and applied too.

[ibnsomeone]

If rule number 6 was actually enforced half the posts would be gone ;)

[naqabi]

Pick one -

http://blog.tylerbell.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/20070622_kitkat1.jpg

Ummm what exactly does that mean? I hope that's not the official response coz it's not really making any sense to me at the moment...:confused:

[Tay_]

The mods have admitted to a bias. The forum rules apply to both pro and anti parties.

If a certain topic is not allowed, both pro and anti sides to that topic should not be allowed, otherwise its just injustice, considering that they adamantly say they are neither a sufi form nor a salafi forum nor a shia forum. Simple as that.

I agree with you on this. I have personally suggested that the obvious topics of controversy that cause headaches for everyone be part of the forum rules in terms of what can or can't be discussed. Not every topic can be covered, but ones that stand out are clear:

Madthabs
Bidah
Sufism
Salafism
Mawlid
Music/Nasheeds
Aqeedah - ie "Where is Allah"

I would add Shi'ism, however I don't see alot of protests from those on the forum who are Shi'ite.

[Abu Layla]

Wow... was this all from my question? :confused:

TAS, don't over glorify me :p lol

[ibnsomeone]

"Where is Allah"


Above his throne, which is above the heavens and the earth!

Sorry, I can't help myself

:fatwa::hijack::banana:





:banme:

[Islam_Junkie]

Is the thread back up? I'm just curious what all the fuss is about? Haven't seen the thread obviously

[fatima_43]

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9700/i5ndwzae2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
By fatima_43 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/fatima_43)

[Tay_]

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9700/i5ndwzae2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
By fatima_43 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/fatima_43)

That cat has one hell of a big nose :) Could be mistaken for something between a cat and a dog

[@sim]

Get a social life people!

[fatima_43]

try looking at that cat without laughing, try.

[TAS]

Above his throne, which is above the heavens and the earth!

1) The earth is circular... what's above for you in Melbourne is actually BELOW for a Brit in England! First of all you gotta define above!

2) Then what about this verse?


Al-Baqara [2:115]
وَلِلّهِ الْمَشْرِقُ وَالْمَغْرِبُ فَأَيْنَمَا تُوَلُّواْ فَثَمَّ وَجْهُ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Walillahi almashriqu waalmaghribu faaynama tuwalloo fathamma wajhu Allahi inna Allaha wasiAAun AAaleemun

2:115 To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

3) ... and this one:


Ash-Shura [42:11]
فَاطِرُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَمِنَ الْأَنْعَامِ أَزْوَاجًا يَذْرَؤُكُمْ فِيهِ لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ

Fatiru alssamawati waalardi jaAAala lakum min anfusikum azwajan wamina alanAAami azwajan yathraokum feehi laysa kamithlihi shayon wahuwa alssameeAAu albaseeru

42:11 (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).

The Quran says nothing is like Him... so if a direction and space binds you, how can they apply to Him as well?

[Teflon]

2) Then what about this verse?

Al-Baqara [2:115]
وَلِلّهِ الْمَشْرِقُ وَالْمَغْرِبُ فَأَيْنَمَا تُوَلُّواْ فَثَمَّ وَجْهُ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Walillahi almashriqu waalmaghribu faaynama tuwalloo fathamma wajhu Allahi inna Allaha wasiAAun AAaleemun

2:115 To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.


If you bothered to delve deeper than your English translation of the Qu'ran, you would find that this verse has NOTHING to do with the direction or place of Allah.

If you bothered to read, say, Ibn Kathir's tafsir of this verse you might find the explanation that the Prophet (saw) gave to it (reported via Abu Hurayrah) which is that this refers to the Qiblah.

This was also the view of Ibn Abbas, as reported by Ibn Abi Hatim.

[SuBMiSSioN]

I've locked the thread for now. I don't know about aussiemu, but I haven't had the chance to read through the posts on this forum over the past 24hrs and this thread just seems to have gone haywire since I left it.

I'll be speaking to aussiemu tomorrow inshaa'Allaah if she doesn't come back on here and reply before then. Until then, I suggest that everyone relax a little and take a few deep breaths. And before anyone accuses me of abusing my powers again - I suggest you ask yourself what you would do if you were in my shoes.

Honestly people. Grow up. Act like mature adults. If you want an answer from us mods, or from the admin herself, then I suggest you all have a little patience and a little more understanding. It's actually quite easy to just turn a blind eye to this thread, and every other thread, and let people go on as they wish. But that won't be happening, so just RELAX.

Oh, and can no one please go and open another thread asking why this one was closed. I've made it clear this is only temporary, so give us some time to respond inshaa'Allaah.

[Khaled]

/msg ChanOP ban #aussiemuslims.com all -noexpire