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girl_in_the_blue_jeans
05-Apr-2004, 11:43 PM
now i don't want to creat controversy but i can't help thinking about this.

first read this:


taken from : http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/opinion.asp?ArticleID=95794


Why does Islam separate men and women?

Many, though not all, Muslim societies practice some gender segregation - the separation of men and women - to various degrees, in public spaces such as mosques, universities, and the marketplace. Thus, in many mosques, men and women have separate areas for prayer or are separated by a screen or curtain.

Seclusion, which differs from the public segregation of the sexes, is the practice of keeping women within the home so that they have no contact with public space. Although gender segregation and seclusion are practiced in some Muslim societies, in many Muslim countries, from Egypt and Tunisia to Malaysia and Indonesia, men and women, especially in cities and towns, increasingly study and work together.

In our modern, globalising world, where two incomes are often necessary to maintain a household, women are increasingly joining the workforce and breaking down traditional notions of gendered space.

Practice of separation

The practice of separation has both religious and cultural origins. The Prophet's (PBUH) Medina did not practice gender segregation. Although an integral part of the community, because of their special status, the Prophet's (PBUH) wives were told by the Holy Quran: "O wives of the Prophet (PBUH)! You are not like any of the other women. If you fear God, do not be complacent in speech so that one in whose heart is a sickness may covet you, but speak honourably. Stay with dignity in your homes and do not display your finery as the pagans of old did" (33:32-33).

The Holy Quran later tells the wives of the Prophet (PBUH) to place a barrier between themselves and unrelated males. Muslim men are told: "And when you ask [his wives] for anything you want, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs" (33:53).

There have been many debates about how these verses concerned with modesty and segregation should be interpreted with respect to Muslim women in general.

Modern scholars have pointed out that they specifically address only the wives of the Prophet (PBUH) rather than all of womankind. They maintain that jurists relied primarily on Prophetic traditions (hadith) as well as the belief that women are a source of temptation (fitnah) for men, to support women's segregation.

In recent decades, more ultraconservative/fundamentalist Muslim leaders have maintained that the verses addressing the wives of the Prophet (PBUH) apply to all Muslim women, who are supposed to emulate the behaviour of the Prophet's (PBUH) wives.

However, opinions today vary about the necessity of separation of the sexes. While many believe that the absolute separation of the sexes is unnecessary, many others believe that modesty requirements can be met through appropriate dress and limiting interaction with unrelated males to conversations such as those concerning professional and educational matters, since men and women attend both work and school in mixed company.

This holds true even in the religious realm, since women have come to play an important role in some Muslim countries in mosques, where they not only attend services and pray with men but also teach Holy Quran classes, run independent auxiliaries, and run for and hold elected offices.

Several Muslim countries (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, and Indonesia) have had women prime ministers or presidents.


then read this:

taken from: http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm


The second thing that must be understood is the separation of men and women during prayer. According to Jewish Law, men and women must be separated during prayer, usually by a wall or curtain called a mechitzah or by placing women in a second floor balcony. There are two reasons for this: first, your mind is supposed to be on prayer, not on the pretty girl praying near you. Second, many pagan religious ceremonies at the time Judaism was founded involved sexual activity and orgies, and the separation prevents or at least discourages this.

The combination of this exemption from certain commandments and this separation often has the result that women have an inferior place in the synagogue. Woman's obligations in the home (which are the reason why women are exempt from time-based commandments like formal prayer services) often keep them away from synagogue. In several synagogues that I have attended, the women's section is poorly climate controlled, and women cannot see (sometimes can't even hear!) what's going on in the men's section, where the services are being led. Women are not obligated by Jewish law to attend formal religious services, and cannot participate in many aspects of the services (traditional Jewish services have a very high degree of "audience participation" -- and I'm not just talking about community readings, I'm talking about actively taking part in running the service).


now someone please explain to me why it is so difficult for women to pray in a mosque....

SuBMiSSioN
06-Apr-2004, 12:17 AM
Assalamu 3alaykum

In my experiances it hasn't been difficult for me to pray in the masjid at all alhumdulilah, and I don't know why it would be difficult...

Just because it's not made compulsory for us women to pray in the masjid doesn't mean we cant.. and I have never come across any scholar, who has said that women aren't allowed to pray at the masjid.

It was encouraged by the prophet sallallahu 3alayhi wa sallam for the woman to go and pray the eid prayers at the masjid..so how has this been made difficult?

I admit that sometimes the masjids may not be up to scratch, but we can blame no one but ourselves for that. We can always gather a few sisters and go and clean up the masjid one day, especially in the sister's section where you will sometimes find it surprising as to how disgusting it can get, considering cleanliness is part of our imaan...

wa assalamu 3alaykum

Joe
06-Apr-2004, 01:37 AM
Islamically, the best prayer for a woman is at her nice cosy home. You can wear your makeup and adorn yourself to the fullest, while you stand before your Creator. But oh well, women!

Oh, and the best prayer for a man is also at home - with exception to the five daily prayers.

girl_in_the_blue_jeans
07-Apr-2004, 04:58 PM
Did anyone actually read the quotes, the second one in particular? Joe do you honestly not see the problem with what you said?

This is exactly why we are so buggered. Until we get over this ridiculous and condenscending stuff we will never be a respectable nation in the world.

God help us.

Joe
07-Apr-2004, 05:55 PM
Nope, I fail to see the problem with what I said. Mind if you help me out with seeing the problem?

aussiemu
08-Apr-2004, 11:13 PM
assalamu alaikum,

Having grown up at a mosque basically from a small age alhamdulillah I've seen the progression of the mosque from about 16 years ago.

We started off with a small mosque that alhamdulillah over time got expanded etc.

I remember the women's side was very small etc and had less facilities for women BUT the fact was that in my community women rarely attended regularly, so it didn't make sense to spend as much money there when theres more men attending.

Over time alhamdulillah though, money got raised and the mosque got bigger and more things were added on and the womens section also got nice alhamdulillah.

I personally think at my local mosque, the women's facilities are good alhamdulillah.

One thing to really realise is that change takes time, I've seen my mosque expand and grow and get better over a period of 16 years since I was very small so change takes time as does attitude and maybe sometimes what happens is that if people were to go and offer to help it would be more productive than complaining.

For e.g. if women's side needs something fixed up then why not raise money for it and get it done? There's plenty of Islamic style activities to be done.

Women culturally tend to not attend the mosque as much as men, but this is also not just based on cultural attitudes, but the fact that the women don't attend the mosque due to other reasons as much as men. So spending more money on the men's side to me makes sense.

However, don't get me wrong, I've seen some of the states of the mosques on the women's side and I don't believe that it is acceptable. Especially when it comes to cleanliness - men or women it shouldn't be dirty.

What I think is needed is actually more participation of the youth in helping to run the mosque and do things in it etc. The mosque is becoming an old people's place and I think more Islamic activities and stuff should be planned around a mosque not other places. To bring what the mosque is back to what it should be - the centre of our community.

We had a women's talk 2 days ago alhamdulllah at our mosque. I really think it depends on attitudes. I remember in my community there was such a lack of knowledge of so many things and it was very cultural, and hwilst alot of that might be there still, at least theres change you can see from many years ago. Change is slow..

So my personal thinking, and Allah knows best, is that we need to get involved in the mosque and do things in a way that doesnt seem disrespectful to those who have been there a long time etc. We should use wisdom and create solutions and not just complain about the problems. I think this is the only way things will change.

I haven't seen as much of these problems here though I've heard some horrible stories from other places. Things like women not being allowed to set foot into the mosque to pray their salat. I think thats off.

As for segregation, I prefer it. I don't think it hurts anyone as long as the proper facilities are provided on both sides. And I think its all about harm minimization. When theres a possibility of doing something segregated without it being of 'lesser' value I don't see why there is a need for it to be mixed. As a female, I don't want things mixed personally and probably wouldn't attend alot of things if they were. Theres probably some comments I'll make on some of the points in the first quoted article but a bit later insha'Allah :) Stay tuned. Also the definition of 'mixing' is another thing that I guess needs clarification.

Anyways thats my 2 cents.

jazakallah khair its an interesting discussion.
wassalamu alaikum

Joe
19-Apr-2004, 12:58 AM
:D Good one

Shadower
19-Apr-2004, 01:51 AM
Even though I would disagree with most of the things mentioned in the quotes girl_in_blue_jeans posted. Such as women allowed to be leaders which according to Muhammad saws is forbidden in Islaam.


There is a hadîth related by Abu Bakrah: He said: "Allah has given me benefit in the battle of al-Jamal from a word I heard from the Prophet (peace be upon him). I was about to follow the people of to fight alongside them in the Battle of the Camel, but then I remembered that the Prophet (peace be upon them), when he was informed that the Persians had nominated Kisra's daughter as their new leader after the death of her father, said: "A people will not be successful if a woman takes charge of their affairs."

[Sahîh al-Bukhârî (4425)]

And simply because it is happening in modern society does not make it halal, but it also is not alright to rebel against a female leader.

This is from the fatwa department of islamtoday.net


However, if a woman is appointed to the post of president or governor, it is not lawful for the people to rebel against her or refuse to obey her as long as she is a Muslim.

Now Muslim women have every right to be angry with the men of the Ummah, because I do beleive they have been neglected for a couple of centuries. And Muhammad saws warned us about this in the hadeeths speaking about the coming of the Dajjal, He (saws) told us that the men of the Ummah will tie their women up, because so many Muslimahs will be going out and been decieved by the Dajjal, because of ignorance, because such intellectual atrocities within the Ummah exist that prevent women from learning, especially from learning about their Deen. And where would the women learn about Islaam in a safe environment? Where else but the masjid. There are sisters that have done the right thing and taken it upon their selves and started up classes lead by knowledgable sisters, and so forth. Or as Submission stated, taken it upon themselves to clean the sisters part of the Masjid, but once again some women take it too far and want things that Islaam has said they cannot have. Some women go as far as shedding the hijjab in their new found "freedom".

But true change does take time, and we need to be patient, everyday is a step forward, and we must help the process along. May we see more Shaykhas in the coming future. Ameen.


Joe do you honestly not see the problem with what you said?

This is exactly why we are so buggered. Until we get over this ridiculous and condenscending stuff we will never be a respectable nation in the world.

There are guidelines for a woman to follow to go out and pray in the Masjid. Some Hadeeths are below.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 7/332:

It is permissible for a Muslim woman to pray in the mosque and her husband does not have the right to stop her if she asks him for permission to do that, so long as she is properly covered and no part of her body is showing that it is forbidden for “strangers” (non mahrams) to see. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “When your womenfolk ask you for permission to go to the mosque, give them permission.” According to another version, “Do not forbid women their share of the mosques if they ask you for permission.” Bilaal – a son of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar – said, “By Allaah, we will stop them.” ‘Abd-Allaah said to him, “I say ‘The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said…’ and you say, ‘We will stop them’?!” Both reports were narrated by Muslim.

Zaynab al-Thaqafiyyah used to narrate that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If any one of you (women) attends ‘Isha’ prayer, let her not put on perfume that night.” According to another report, “If any one of you (women) attends the mosque, let her not put on perfume that night.” Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh.

It was proven in saheeh ahaadeeth that the women of the Sahaabah used to attend Fajr prayer in congregation, covering their faces, so that no one would recognize them. It was proven that ‘Amrah bint ‘Abd al-Rahmaan said: I heard ‘Aa’ishah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), say: “If the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had seen the way the women are behaving, he would have forbidden them to go to the mosque as the women of the Children of Israel were forbidden.” It was said to ‘Amrah: Were the women of the Children of Israel forbidden to go to the mosque? She said: Yes. Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh.

These texts clearly indicate that if the Muslim woman adheres to proper Islamic etiquette in her dress and avoids adorning herself in ways that will provoke fitnah and affect those of weak faith, there is no reason why she should not pray in the mosque. If she appears in such a way that evil people and those in whose heart is a disease will be tempted by her, then she is not allowed to enter the mosque, rather she is not allowed to leave her home and attend the mosque.

Sincereadvice
19-Apr-2004, 02:02 AM
bismillah alhumdulillah

peace and blessings on muhhamad ibn abdullah (nabi)

[quote]Islamically, the best prayer for a woman is at her nice cosy home. You can wear your makeup and adorn yourself to the fullest, while you stand before your Creator. But oh well, women!

Oh, and the best prayer for a man is also at home - with exception to the five daily prayers.

make up and prayers? do you assume that Allaah swt will want to see women in make up especially during prayers when only KOHL is allowed as make up.? all make up must be removed whilst in prayer.

Women cannot be banned from the mosque if they ask for space in teh mosque we must a Muslims make sure they are given adequate space.

ofcourse the best Row is the last Row for women and the best prayer is in her house in a corner of her Room where she will get more reward.

Allahu alam

asalamualaykum

aussiemu
19-Apr-2004, 03:06 AM
assalamu alaikum

makeup is permissable to wear in prayer and doesn't invalide it. The only aspect to that is that the wudhu should be valid if doing it overmakeup e.g. waterproof makeup or nailpolish etc creates a barrier and doesn't let the water reach your skin but theres nothing wrong with doing wudhu then putting on makeup and then praying later on. There is fatawa at islam-qa.com about it.

So what joe was talking about is that at home you have more freedom to do what you want etc in dress and makeup etc.. because if you go outside to pray you have to remove it etc.

What shadower pointed out at the end of his last post with the ahadith and the conditions is all that we need to be concerned about.

I do agree that the men aren't doing a very good job with some areas, at the same time I don't think the women are either.

wassalamu alaikum

Joe
19-Apr-2004, 05:03 AM
"Do not prevent your women from going to the mosque, even though their houses are better for them." (Abu Dawud in al-Sunan)

"A woman’s prayer in her house is better than her prayer in her courtyard, and her prayer in her bedroom is better than her prayer in her house." (Abu Dawud in al-Sunan)

When I said 'make-up' it includes, perfume, jewelery, clown-paint, etc, etc.

Can a woman pray in her house wearing perfume and jewellery?- Islam-QA (http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=21970&dgn=4)