Did you know Paul taught for women to cover the head too?

[Rachael]

Just thought you guys (if you didnt know) would be fascinated to know that the apostle Paul (yeah i know you dont like) taught the early christian women to cover their heads?

Do you think this is where Mohummed got the idea from?

1 Corinthians 11 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



1 Corinthians 11
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

[your sister]

no this is where the prophet mohamad "peace and blessings be upon him got it from ".........it was revealed to him by ALLAH the creator ......

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 33:59)

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah (swt) is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Qur'an 24:30-31)
The truth is that wearing the hijab is an obligation on women, mentioned in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah.The purpose of wearing hijab is not simply to put a piece of cloth on your head. Hijab means to cover the entire body (some scholars have said that the hands and face are excluded, other scholars say the entire body must be covered including the face and hands) so that nothing is revealed of it. In addition to this, hijab also means that the women who wears it should be modest and behave within Islamic principles

[Al Baitel 'ateeq]

Although there are some similarities between your faith and ours, Prophet Muhammad did not speak from his own desires, nor did he get ideas from anywhere/anyone else. It was all revelation from God.

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى [Quran 53:3]

(Nor does he speak of desire), asserting that nothing the Prophet utters is of his own desire or wish.

[cheesegirl]

Yes, I knew that, and I also know that these days Christians generally dismiss that as a product of Paul's culture and not a religious commandment.

Do you think this is where Mohummed got the idea from?

Absolutely not! Paul said women had to cover their heads in Church so that devils do not enter them or something like that (and the main object of Christians these days against this is that it makes it seem like women are somehow mentally inferior than men and devils can get into their heads but not into the heads of men).

On the other hand, Islam teaches:

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[Quran- Chapter 33 verse 59]

Also, in Islam it is not only about covering the head- it about covering the whole body except for the hands and face (or according to some opinions, the feet also, and according to other opinions, the whole body except the eyes with which to see). It is about modesty. No point covering your hair if you are going walk around in a mini skirt or something like that.

And by the way, Prophet Muhammad pbuh is not get the idea, he got the verse, from the angel Gabriel who received it from Allah and was ordered to pass it on to the Prophet. The prophet did not create laws according to his whim and fancy, but rather according to the command of Allah.

[cheesegirl]

7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

What on earth does that mean?

[carol_au]

Salaams Rachel,

I know that this is what the bible says..but how many women in the church today follow Paul's teachings about covering when praying?

The excuse always given is that Paul was saying that a woman should be under man's authority and that the head covering was not needed as if a woman was under the authority of her husband then she was fulfilling the requirement of the verses. The man under authority of God and the woman under the authority of her husband.

it's interesting that Mary and the women at the time of Jesus were covered at all times with head scarves.. not just at prayers times. It's more correct to say I believe, that as head scarves have been part of the Jewish faith for centuries, so also when the Muslim faith was completely revealed , Allah called for the women to do what had been lost with the post Jesus Christian era.. the wearing of the head covering at all times. Paul paid lip service to it.. requiring Christian women to pray with their heads covered, but certainly no Christian woman today covers her head to pray.. I remember as a teenager though, many wore a hat to church. So it's not that long ago that even the Church acknowledged that the wearing of a head covering in Church is not a cultural requirement or a symbolic one.. but something the true Christian woman would do.

[Rachael]

Yes that is right in the past century it has become less fashionable to do so - just as many islamic women are probably starting to not wear them in modern times too (not sure but assuming).

I have learnt that according to the bible it is instructed to wear the veil not only to pray but also to sleep. And yes it is for modesty and for not being attractive to demons.

" For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." ( 1 Cor 11:8-10, NIV)

See how it says "and because of the angels" this is suggested to me that it is because angels are attracted to women, other translations suggests so as the angels can differentiate the sexes!.



demons/fallen angels lust after human women, is what it says in scripture.

This accounts for Incubus (demon) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus_%28demon%29 & succubus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus experiences.

there was something mentioned on wiki re: Middle Eastern story of the same but referring to men.

Middle Eastern belief
A Middle Eastern version of the succubus known as "um al duwayce" (أٌم الدويس) portrays this succubus as a beautiful, alluringly scented woman who wanders the desert on the hooves of a camel. While other forms of the succubus participate in sexual intercourse to collect semen and become impregnated, this particular succubus is instead a judge of character and exacts revenge on those who commit adultery. She attempts to lure these men to have intercourse with her, at which time sharp razors within her vagina slice off the partner's penis, leaving him in agonizing pain. Having rendered the man helpless, she turns into her true form and proceeds to eat him alive.[citations needed]

Other bible verse:

1 Timothy 2:9 (King James Version)
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;



See the basis to sin in christianity is caused by Satan and devils. Bascially where there is disharmony and other evils, that is devils whispering in your ears causing it (from what i am learning)

Putting on your armour of Yahweh (which is prayer each morning asking for the protection of Yahweh) You are protected from them.


Ephesians Chapter 6 http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/eph6.html#12

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

[Rachael]

What on earth does that mean?

I believe it means that a man need not cover his head, as he is in the image of God, and a women wears the veil (as was the custom) to show subordinance to her husband.... depends how it is translated I guess.

Here are some online translations of that passage.http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-7.htm

People's New Testament

11:7 A man indeed ought not to cover his head, etc. In this whole passage we must keep in mind the Eastern ideas of the relations of the sexes. Paul bases these rules of propriety on the account of their creation. The veil is a sign of subordination to others present.

He is the image and glory of God. But man has no created superior.

The woman is the glory of the man. She is subordinate to him, of which the veil is the symbol.

Wesley's Notes

11:7 A man indeed ought not to veil his head, because he is the image of God - In the dominion he bears over the creation, representing the supreme dominion of God, which is his glory. But the woman is only matter of glory to the man, who has a becoming dominion over her. Therefore she ought not to appear, but with her head veiled, as a tacit acknowledgment of it.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

7-9. Argument, also, from man's more immediate relation to God, and the woman's to man.

he is … image … glory of God—being created in God's "image," first and directly: the woman, subsequently, and indirectly, through the mediation of man. Man is the representative of God's "glory" this ideal of man being realized most fully in the Son of man (Ps 8:4, 5; compare 2Co 8:23). Man is declared in Scripture to be both the "image," and in the "likeness," of God (compare Jas 3:9). But "image" alone is applied to the Son of God (Col 1:15; compare Heb 1:3). "Express image," Greek, "the impress." The Divine Son is not merely "like" God, He is God of God, "being of one substance (essence) with the Father." [Nicene Creed].

woman … glory of … man—He does not say, also, "the image of the man." For the sexes differ: moreover, the woman is created in the image of God, as well as the man (Ge 1:26, 27). But as the moon in relation to the sun (Ge 37:9), so woman shines not so much with light direct from God, as with light derived from man, that is, in her order in creation; not that she does not in grace come individually into direct communion with God; but even here much of her knowledge is mediately given her through man, on whom she is naturally dependent.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

11:2-16 Here begin particulars respecting the public assemblies, ch. 1Co 14. In the abundance of spiritual gifts bestowed on the Corinthians, some abuses had crept in; but as Christ did the will, and sought the honour of God, so the Christian should avow his subjection to Christ, doing his will and seeking his glory. We should, even in our dress and habit, avoid every thing that may dishonour Christ. The woman was made subject to man, because made for his help and comfort. And she should do nothing, in Christian assemblies, which looked like a claim of being equal. She ought to have power, that is, a veil, on her head, because of the angels. Their presence should keep Christians from all that is wrong while in the worship of God. Nevertheless, the man and the woman were made for one another. They were to be mutual comforts and blessings, not one a slave, and the other a tyrant. God has so settled matters, both in the kingdom of providence and that of grace, that the authority and subjection of each party should be for mutual help and benefit. It was the common usage of the churches, for women to appear in public assemblies, and join in public worship, veiled; and it was right that they should do so. The Christian religion sanctions national customs wherever these are not against the great principles of truth and holiness; affected singularities receive no countenance from any thing in the Bible.

[Majestic_Islam]

Assalaamu 'ala manittaba'al huda,

Rachael, regarding demons/fallen angels - in our faith we do not believe that Angels can fall (sin/err), rather they have no 'iradah' or free will. We do however believe that a particular Demon (Azazeel) known to us as Iblees/Shaytaan (Saytan) etc transgressed and was haughty and arrogant, and although being in the presence of his Lord, and having been a vicegearant of even the angels, he disobeyed and eventually became the accursed and was thrown out.
The Qur'an actually has his dialogue with God, where he claims to be better than Adam - who was fashioned from clay etc, where as he was created from fire.

He is from the Jinni's or the Demons as we know them in the English language (no not the Genies - though that bears some resemblance to the term (the name not what they look like!). They are of all types, and can also be Muslim, atheist, Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc etc.

You mention:

demons/fallen angels lust after human women, is what it says in scripture.

Jinns can fall in love with both genders and may posess at times, and generally they are in another dimension, however at times there is a cross over that occurs for whatever reason - a physicist friend of ours from Norway many years ago at La Trobe Uni used to come and pray the congregational Friday prayers with us - as he was interested in Islam - even though he wasn't a Muslim. He mentioned that science says that there are some 16 dimensions in existence - Islamically there is way more than this figure - so what we do not see, does not mean that it does not occur or exist.

Muslims have certain du'as or supplications/invocations that we read daily for protection and for blessing (as well as asking from the Most Generous. We believe that we have guardian angels called 'Hafadhah' angels which guard us against foreign attacks which we cannot see (such as from the dangerous and trouble causing demons - not all of them are harmful - but the ones that are called Ifrit and other names). Increasing in the invocations, allows the angels to work better for the individual. However if God wants for us to die, or for something to befall us, then he removes the angels from protecting us for a while, and we incur an illness, an accident etc. Ever wonder how a 3 month old falls from a 15 storey building and survives - when they should have fallen splat onto the pavement and died?

But again, only God Himself knows best the inner dealings of these.

Clothing is one thing, even touching hands is not allowed in orthodox Jews - who abstain from shaking hands with the opposite gender whom they are not related to by marriage etc (they abstain from na-mahram's just like the Muslims do).

Focusing on similarities is important - and the most important one is the belief in One Creator, as this is the starting point.

May God the Almighty quench your thirst for beneficial knowledge and allow you to come nearer to Him - because the purpose of life is to be in His obedience and to know him (Ma'rifatullah) - to know God and to earn His Good Pleasure.

Kind Regards

Abu Khadijah

[carol_au]

That is a most interesting explanation you gave Rachel, and one i have never heard before I must admit. it would go off topic for me to say more on that subject.

In Hebrews it talks of how Angels look on astonished at the way God interacts with humans.. as a Christian I used to believe the verse you quoted.. "because of the angels" was because angels are always watching and being astonished at man's (or in this case woman's) obedience and disobedience to the Creator.

Now as a Muslim I am fully aware that angels are recording all I do both good and bad.. and so for me that verse is now simply a reminder that even the bible warns that Christians will face judgement and as the wearing of a head covering is as much part of the Christian/Jewish tradition as the Muslim.. Angels do watch on

The main problem with the commentaries you have suggested is that it totally negates that all Christians believe they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.. therefore both men and women get their light not from the concept of subordination, but from their relationship with God. Paul states that there is neither male nor female, all are one in Christ Jesus. Yes there are important teachings in the bible on the difference between men and women and husbands and wives.. but the true and most important relationship is that between a man and a woman with their God.. which is what I think Majestic Islam is meaning in his post.

[Rachael]

So are you saying that Islam does not believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in each human being?

[cheesegirl]

Of course we don't!

We believe the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel and someone came along and added him to the trinity.

[your sister]

just as many islamic women are probably starting to not wear them in modern times too (not sure but assuming).

umm sorry to inform you that you are very mistaken there , there is such a big come back in woman wearing hijab and niqab "full face cover" especially amongst the youth around the world. My husband is from bosnia and he will always remind me bosnia was never like this during his time there, muslim woman and muslim men not only are they rushing back to islam but to the correct islamic teachings, woman in bosnia now everywhere can be seen wearing correct islamic hijab brothers growing their beards , knowledge flowing everywhere. Here in australia we cant get enough of hijab/abaya shops

[Rachael]

Thank you for the correction your sis.

Of course we don't!

We believe the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel and someone came along and added him to the trinity.

okay! interesting. I did not know that.

[Al-Qasim]

Just thought you guys (if you didnt know) would be fascinated to know that the apostle Paul (yeah i know you dont like) taught the early christian women to cover their heads?

Do you think this is where Mohummed got the idea from?

No. i dont think that at all.

i think that "Paul" saw some paintings/statues of Maryam (AS), and that he got the idea from Maryam, who got the order (to cover her head) from the same God that Muhammad (SAW) got the order from.

Quran
33:59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[مروة]

Hi Rachael,

Simple flaw in your theory, Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him was illiterate.. how would he get ideas from Paul? from writings?

[Rachael]

same way he took part in the creation of the koran I guess? speaking of thus, did he have someone literate writing for him? or was it written after his death?

[مروة]

Dont you think people would have known? If he had a literrate companion who is knowledgeable of the writings of Paul and such?

And what do u mean by ur first statement? The quran was revealed in verses, not "written in chapters".. It was only after the death of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him and the death of the many people who had memorised the quran that it was compiled accurately and perfectly into a book form.

[Rachael]

thanks for that, I didnt mean anything by what I said, i just asked a question. If the koran was written after his death or during his life. I didnt know for sure.

[Rachael]

Dont you think people would have known? If he had a literrate companion who is knowledgeable of the writings of Paul and such?

Meme I am not stating any facts just thinking out loud, bad habit sorry. I dont know if people would have known or if it is even likely that the Prophet new of Paul, it was just a thought, i shouldnt have said it in hindsight without any knowledge about it, it was just a curiousity to me the similarity.