Monopoly question.

[Abu Coburg]

Perhaps he's on the verge of reverting, and your lack of manners and harshness in words has just turned him off.

I dont have the knowledge to discuss about what your discussing on the post, so he may be wrong in this aspect (likewise you may be wrong), but manners in Islam are crucial before you start sharing any sort of Islamic knowledge.

Please. I only responded to him in kind, and that is my right as a Muslim. Despite his initially rude comments, I responded to him politely in the beginning. He continued with his rude and condescending tones. He is the one who started with the rude, offensive, and condescending tones, and this is not the first thread he has spoken in such rude tones, neither am I the only person.

Tell me, where are the good manners in raving off like the lone ranger, behaving like an authority on something, when one clearly lacks even the most fundamental knowledge and making conceited and condescending remarks at others. Isn't the rightful thing to do to ask questions if one does not know something?

As I said, I deal with people as individuals and do not place people in categories. If people do not like to be treated in certain manners, they should treat others the same. It's simple common sense really, whether someone is Muslim or not.

As for da'wah, sorry brother/sister, but I don't buy this 'perhaps this or that behaviour turned him away from Islam' line. Everyone knows that if they behave rudely with others, they will be responded to in kind. And everyone, except conniving bigots who want to bank on this good-intentioned emotion of brothers/sisters like you, know full well that not all people from Muslims or disbelievers are the same in their characteristics.

Perhaps Wayseer has more knowledge of Islam than any of us on this forum.

His posts indicate that he is unaware of even the very basic fundamentals.

So can we please get back on topic.

[Curiously_Undercover]

He is the one who started with the rude, offensive, and condescending tones, and this is not the first thread he has spoken in such rude tones, neither am I the only person.

...As I said, I deal with people as individuals and do not place people in categories. If people do not like to be treated in certain manners, they should treat others the same. It's simple common sense really, whether someone is Muslim or not.

You have common sense and then you have Islamic morals. Him not being a muslim has an excuse for being rude, you on the other hand do not.

His posts indicate that he is unaware of even the very basic fundamentals.

More the reason to not be harsh.

May Allah guide us all...

Conniving bigot out!
Wassalaam

[Abu Coburg]

Conniving bigot out!

I don't know what you understood, but I said that conniving bigots will abuse and exploit the good intentioned emotions of yours (emotions like 'what if this or that will turn him away from Islam')

It seems you think I called you a conniving bigot.

Read the post patiently brother/sister.

Him not being a muslim has an excuse for being rude, you on the other hand do not.

I have the permission from Islam to respond to rude behaviour in kind. I responded, did not start it.

[Curiously_Undercover]

I don't know what you understood, but I said that conniving bigots will abuse and exploit the good intentioned emotions of yours (emotions like 'what if this or that will turn him away from Islam')

It seems you think I called you a conniving bigot.

Read the post patiently brother/sister.

I read that wrong, my apologies!

I have the permission from Islam to respond to rude behaviour in kind. I responded, did not start it.

I havent come across anything that proves that, but if that is the case, wisdom is needed since he's a potential Muslim inshaa'Allah.

[cheesegirl]

Being a non-Muslim does not give someone permission to be rude, nor is it a valid excuse.

[Curiously_Undercover]

Let me clarify. "More of an excuse".

Meaning all humans will be rude at one point in their life, however being a Muslim we have more reason to abstain from being rude.

[wayseer]

If christians and jews (or anyone who is not a Muslim) were not disbelievers, we would not have any need to do da'wah to them or invite them to Islam! We do da'wah to them and call them to Islam because they are disbelievers.

That is the issue which is clouding your thinking.

I am not a Christian.

The biblical scripture where written, in whatever form, well before the Qur'an and referred to one God and was therefore monotheist. The word Allah was not in use at that time. As some one has pointed out, God is finding the going tough at the moment.

Now please go back and read what I said and not what you think I said.

I have given you abundant references to indicate that the 'people of the Book/s' are well received within Islam.

The fact that Allah has sent the last prophet is another argument - an argument that is often clouded in the fog of extremism and continuing terrorism which has nothing to do with God.

Those who accepted Jesus and Moses and all previous prophets as Allah's prophets (without believing in trinity), of course they were Muslims.

... which essential agrees with what I have said.

[wayseer]

All;

I am not a Christian.

And I am rather puzzled that some find my posts 'rude', 'condescending' - a 'lone ranger' even. I assure you I am not trying to be 'rude' etc etc. Perhaps it is the residue of dealing with Christian Fundamentalists for years that has given me a certain coating of armor that is reflected in my posts. If so, I duly apologize and will try to do better.

[Abu Coburg]

I have given you abundant references to indicate that the 'people of the Book/s' are well received within Islam.

You keep repeating the same thing.

Firstly you can't even seem to grasp that there is exclusively only one way that leads to Allah and that is Islam. This is stated in the Quran.

Secondly you don't understand that Jesus and Moses also called to worship Allah alone, just like Prophet Muhammad and THAT is what Islam is all about. Different laws for dietary or other matters are only secondary issues and they have been changed by Allah from one prophet to another.

Those who accepted them as Allah's prophets before the next prophet arrived, were Muslims indeed. However, as soon as a new prophet of Allah arrived, if someone rejected him, he is a disbeliever.

To be Muslim, it is necessary to accept ALL prophets of Allah. Accepting some and rejecting some is disbelief. See 4:150 and 48:13.

... which essential agrees with what I have said.

You forgot to agree with this other part:

But as soon as Prophet Muhammad arrived, it is necessary to accept him too as Allah's prophet alongside accepting all past prophets. Not accepting him as the last prophet of Allah makes one a disbeliever.

Acceptance of Prophet Muhammad is acceptance of all past prophets and acceptance of the Quran is acceptance of all past books (in true form).

This is as taught by the Quran itself. Hope that makes it clear.

Plus you seem to think that Jesus and Moses brought different religions.

You also seem to think that the term "people of the book" applies to those who accepted Jesus and Moses as Allah's prophets. It doesn't. It applies to those christians and jews who claim to follow Jesus and/or Moses and reject the Prophet Muhammad , notwithstanding the fact that the christians even believe in the trinity.

Those who accepted Jesus and/or Moses as Allah's prophets before the next-in-line prophet arrived, are NOT what are termed as "people of the book".

"People of the book" (which is christians and jews as we know them, from Prophet Muhammad's arrival onwards who do not accept him, NOT the true Muslims who accepted Jesus and Moses as prophets of Allah) are not "well-received" in Islam that we consider their religions valid. They are a subset of kuffaar, named thusly because of their claims on the books, and because their slaughtered animals can be eaten by Muslims and because Muslim men can marry their women under some circumstances.

The fact that Allah has sent the last prophet is another argument - an argument that is often clouded in the fog of extremism and continuing terrorism which has nothing to do with God.

It is not another argument and has everything to do with Allah and nothing to do with extremism or terrorism. Read verse 4:150 and its exegesis. (I don't know from where terrorism came into all this!)

The very foundation of Islam is acceptance of Prophet Muhammad as Allah's last prophet. Those who wish to separate belief in Allah from the belief in His prophets are kafirs (and/or kafir misinformation peddlers who want to poison people's beliefs) as the Quran explicitly says in 4:150.

The word Allah was not in use at that time.

Not true. Every prophet from Adam until Muhammad, peace be upon them, have used Allah's name as it is. The languages people spoke might have been different, but they have always known His name. The very first thing Adam said when he got life was "Alhamdulillah".

If so, I duly apologize and will try to do better.

Ok, then do not make comments like:

That is the issue which is clouding your thinking.

but rather ask what you know not.

Peace.

[wayseer]

You keep repeating the same thing.

Maybe that's because it's worth repeating.

Firstly you can't even seem to grasp that there is exclusively only one way that leads to Allah and that is Islam. This is stated in the Quran.

That's not the issue. Go back and read my posts.

Secondly you don't understand that Jesus and Moses also called to worship Allah alone, just like Prophet Muhammad and THAT is what Islam is all about. Different laws for dietary or other matters are only secondary issues and they have been changed by Allah from one prophet to another.

I have not suggested otherwise.

Those who accepted them as Allah's prophets before the next prophet arrived, were Muslims indeed.

That is a moot point

[

To be Muslim, it is necessary to accept ALL prophets of Allah. Accepting some and rejecting some is disbelief. See 4:150 and 48:13.

I do not accept the call to kill others because of some imagined breach of honour. God has made no such stipulation. Terrorism by any name has no place in the 21st century.

Plus you seem to think that Jesus and Moses brought different religions.

The word 'religion' only entered our vocabulary when something called Christianity became apparent and something different to Judaism and that 'something different' was called 'religion'. So, yes, etymologically, Judaism and Christian are different religions.

You also seem to think that the term "people of the book" applies to those who accepted Jesus and Moses as Allah's prophets. It doesn't. It applies to those christians and jews who claim to follow Jesus and/or Moses and reject the Prophet Muhammad

How can those who would never have heard of Muhammad 'reject' that of which they have never been conscious??????

notwithstanding the fact that the christians even believe in the trinity.

Give the Trinity a break unless you actually know anything about the doctrine. The doctrine of the Trinity is not what most Muslims would have you believe. Christians do not worship the Trinity - they worship God.

Those who accepted Jesus and/or Moses as Allah's prophets before the next-in-line prophet arrived, are NOT what are termed as "people of the book".

Nice dodge.

It is not another argument and has everything to do with Allah and nothing to do with extremism or terrorism. Read verse 4:150 and its exegesis. (I don't know from where terrorism came into all this!)

It came in with Islam - with your insistence that you can say anything you like because you are a Muslim. I reject this descent into tribalism.

Not true. Every prophet from Adam until Muhammad, peace be upon them, have used Allah's name as it is. The languages people spoke might have been different, but they have always known His name. The very first thing Adam said when he got life was "Alhamdulillah".

And you were there? I really fail to get with a cooee of your understanding. Whatever God is called is, of course, a matter of language.

Ok, then do not make comments like:

My apology was unconditional. In making my apology conditional you are manipulating my apology to your own ends. If such is the teaching of Islam then I'm not interested.

Good luck and Good Bye

[Abu Coburg]

I do not accept the call to kill others because of some imagined breach of honour. God has made no such stipulation. Terrorism by any name has no place in the 21st century.

[mod - some manners wouldn't go astray] You are bringing in straw men. Who even mentioned any killing anywhere? You brought terrorism into the topic from nowhere!

And indeed Allah has stipulated that accepting some prophets and rejecting some makes one a disbeliever (4:150 and more). Here you lie against Allah.

The word 'religion' only entered our vocabulary when something called Christianity became apparent and something different to Judaism and that 'something different' was called 'religion'. So, yes, etymologically, Judaism and Christian are different religions.

Rubbish. Even when there was no "christianity", there were "the true followers of Moses, that is, Muslims who followed Moses" and there were idol worshipers.

Besides that, you understood nothing of what I wrote.

Give the Trinity a break unless you actually know anything about the doctrine. The doctrine of the Trinity is not what most Muslims would have you believe. Christians do not worship the Trinity - they worship God.

Here you show your true agenda. You really are a christian and wish for Muslims to swallow this gobbledygook that you preach! lol

Nice dodge.

More arrogance and condescension. You are illiterate in Arabic and yet behave as if you are a scholar of Islam. What I told you was a bonafide Muslim belief mentioned in the Quran.

It came in with Islam - with your insistence that you can say anything you like because you are a Muslim. I reject this descent into tribalism.

Where did I say I can say anything because I am Muslim? And where on earth does tribalism come into all this?!

And you were there? I really fail to get with a cooee of your understanding. Whatever God is called is, of course, a matter of language.

[mod] This is the kind of arrogance I was talking about raving off like the lone ranger. [mod] You could have just asked, instead you choose to lay naked your ignorance, you jahil. In any case, look up the words "hadith" and "prophetic teachings" next time you study about Islam.

My apology was unconditional. In making my apology conditional you are manipulating my apology to your own ends. If such is the teaching of Islam then I'm not interested.

You made the apology but continued with your arrogant and condescending behaviour acting as if you are a know it all. All I said was very nicely tell you to ask if you do not know, and you come back with this. It's your own hereafter you will deal with whether you accept Islam or not. No skin off my nose. I will deal with my own hereafter.

In Islam, Allah has made it clear that our job is to inform and say the truth uncompromisingly. So you can't emotionally blackmail us with these kind of comments.

You have shown very well that you are a troll and a liar and by claiming to be interested in Islam you just want to abuse the good intentions and softness of Muslims and don't want your lies to be called out, but you fail to see that you cannot succeed in your agenda of poisoning Muslims' beliefs!

[falah]

This doesn't seem like constructive discourse. I would remind participants in dialogue to refrain from personal insults.

[Abu Coburg]

You are right Falah. That is his aim: To derail any meaningful discourse to push his agenda for acceptance of trinity.

Give the Trinity a break unless you actually know anything about the doctrine. The doctrine of the Trinity is not what most Muslims would have you believe. Christians do not worship the Trinity - they worship God.

That one line is a perfect indicator of his arrogance thinking he knows better than Muslims. People who come to learn don't claim to know better than those they are supposedly learning from and try to teach them their own doctrines. It also shows that he wishes for Muslims to swallow hook, line and sinker his line that christians are monotheists, and the pathetic line that even other christians will laugh at when he says 'christians don't worship trinity'

He keeps bringing in straw men like tribalism and terrorism in the discourse when no one other than him mentioned it.

He is exploiting the softness of Muslims in order to get away with his trolling because he knows that for the purpose of dawah some Muslims will tolerate his bad behaviour, but he doesn't know that despite everything, no Muslim will compromise on basic beliefs of Islam. I am done talking to him.

So yeah... moving along, Musa/Cheesegirl or others, can you answer the question in the initial posts please.

[falah]

The biblical scripture where written, in whatever form, well before the Qur'an and referred to one God and was therefore monotheist.

Yes, but the Biblical scripture was also corrupted long before the Quran was revealed. There is lots of polytheism that has been added into the Bible over the centuries which contradicts the early monoteistic teaching. There are polytheistic verses to be found even in the Old Testament.

The word Allah was not in use at that time

The word "Allah" has been used for thousands of years by Arabs at least. It was widely used by Arabs before the Quran was revealed. Christian, Jewish, and pagan Arabs all prayed to Allah. There were even Arabian Jews named Abd-Allah (servant of God) before the Quran was revealed. There was a saying amongst the pagan Arabs that angels were the "daughters of Allah", and many other similar references in pagan culture

The word "Allah" is similar to the words used for "God" in other Semiotic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Now please go back and read what I said and not what you think I said.

I have given you abundant references to indicate that the 'people of the Book/s' are well received within Islam.

The fact that Allah has sent the last prophet is another argument - an argument that is often clouded in the fog of extremism and continuing terrorism which has nothing to do with God.



... which essential agrees with what I have said.[/QUOTE]

[wayseer]

Yes, but the Biblical scripture was also corrupted long before the Quran was revealed. There is lots of polytheism that has been added into the Bible over the centuries which contradicts the early monoteistic teaching. There are polytheistic verses to be found even in the Old Testament.

You must be reading a different Bible.

The word "Allah" has been used for thousands of years by Arabs at least. It was widely used by Arabs before the Quran was revealed.

Quite so ... and?

[wayseer]

lol, me too cheesegirl.

And abu coburg Im with you, we have manners, but at the same time, if some nonmuslim is gonna belittle our knowledgable scholars, and act like he knows it all, putting a fitnah in the minds of my brothers and sisters, with all his 'evidence' then that person NEEDS to be spoken to harshly, so that he can know his place. He is NOT better than our scholars, whatever he or others may say.

I have made no such suggestion. All I have done is read the Qur'an and a number books on the life of Muhammad - written by Muslims from my understanding.

It seems clear to me that Islam is an inclusive religion. I have given any amount of references to support my view. As Yet I have had no real indication where the Qur'an says otherwise. The only thing that I have received is a mouthful of bad language and that others support this use of bad language.

I suggest Islam instructs better.

[wayseer]

It also shows that he wishes for Muslims to swallow hook, line and sinker his line that christians are monotheists, and the pathetic line that even other christians will laugh at when he says 'christians don't worship trinity'

If Christians act as you indicate and 'worship' the Trinity you might indicate you reference to support your statement.

[Abu Coburg]

Oh the poor martyr! The last resort - "I'm a victim"

It seems clear to me that Islam is an inclusive religion.

You are a liar and you will not be successful in making your claims that Islam validates other religions. Islam invalidates everything other than Islam. It is the only religion acceptable to Allah and those who partially believe in some prophets and reject some other prophets are called disbelievers and dwellers of hellfire in the Quran.

You keep ignoring verses like 3:85, 4:150, 48:13 and many others.

On the other thread I quoted you a hadith of the Prophet which openly states that anyone who heard of him and did not accept him as Allah's prophet, he is a disbeliever destined to everlasting hellfire.

There is no bad language used against you. You are a shameless liar who lies openly when what he did is open for all to see. It's a description.

Here is an example of your lies. You said on the other thread:

I'm not all that interested in what scholars say. I'm interested in what the Qur'an actually says and not what others think it says.

as if you know better than scholars. And then, you lie about it here:

I have made no such suggestion.

Jahil too is a description since you pretend to be an authority on Islam but you are illiterate in Arabic and don't even care to look at Prophet's hadith.

As for those believing the trinity being disbelievers according to Islam, see 5:17, 5:72 and 5:73.

You keep saying you gave "proofs" for Islam being "inclusive" yet what you reference is just mentions of previous prophets, which no Muslim denies.

Good bye liar.

[Abu Coburg]

How can those who would never have heard of Muhammad 'reject' that of which they have never been conscious??????

Just saw this newly included line in his old post.

Those who never heard of the Prophet are not accountable.

He has also been told repeatedly that the previous people were accountable for the prophets they DID hear about. Those who accepted Moses and all previous prophets, before Jesus arrived were indeed Muslims.

Those who accepted Jesus and Moses and all previous prophets, before Prophet Muhammad arrived, were indeed Muslims. 5:113

But now that Prophet Muhammad arrived, it is obligatory to accept him as Allah's last prophet if one wants to salvage his or her hereafter.

[SammerTX]

Wayseer, excuse my ignorance here but if you have read the Qu'ran translation and it all makes sense to you and you believe in it's message...what's stopping you from becoming a Muslim?