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    Crazy Cat Lady Jayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melb View Post
    The catholic POPE and his brother...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7nM...e_gdata_player
    "One allegation that may involve the Popes own brother"

    Liberal media sensationalising. Again.

    It may involve the Popes own brother. No one could possibly have ulterior motives for making such accusations.

    Anyway, it is hardly relevant. Unless you routinely condemn one man for the actions of a family member?

    And yes I am well aware of what has been reported about the Popes knowledge. You are simply showing your lack of knowledge about what the office of the Pope is. It's not about the individual that holds it, but the protection given to the office. It is not about the man at all, so when discussing the Pope, we shouldn't be discussing the sins, real or imagined of the man who holds the office.
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    I can see Abu Layla!
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    Needs more popcorn!
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    Senior Member SammerTX's Avatar
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    The big thing for me though is Christ. I can't accept that Christ was not the son of God. I have researched it, both from an Islamic and a Christian element. It's not that I'm not willing to go away from what I was raised with - I am a convert to Catholicism and it was a big disappointment to my family. I simply haven't come across anything in Islam that convinces me that Christ was not the son of God. Perhaps if I'm ever convicted otherwise I'll convert, but until then nothing else really counts.
    Are you going by scriptural evidence, common sense or passion?
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    monotheist falah's Avatar
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    Is Jesus (PBUH) the Begotten Son of God?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuJ2dmkHnw
    Singapore: oppresses Muslims, bans athaan, bans hijab in schools, prevents building of madrassahs or muslim schools, puts limit on the percentage of Muslims allowed in each apartment building, and bans Muslims from joining Singapore's elite military forces. Singapore; Israel's best buddy!
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    Melb (13-Apr-2012)

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    Jane you first start with the church being around around for so long....???? Which I say and can prove that it is only around due to corruption, the CATHOLIC church is so corrupt like pornography...Somehow you can overlook this?

    I say and you know very well that the Catholic church is full of priests who prey on small innocent children & the catholic faith of dealing with it is moving them around just to molester even more children... Somehow you can overlook this?

    The trinity is complex & it's not your doctrine your writing skills will give justice... Religion should have an answer to everything & nothing should be complex, unless it is a lie.... Somehow you can overlook this?

    Abraham sacrificing his son is a world away from god sacrificing his son, or himself, or the wholly ghost, because Abraham showed how much faith he had in god by willing to do this act under gods instruction... Please don't try & make things more complicated... Nothing is complicated, just go on the Internet & watch the hundreds of debates between Muslims & Catholics, Muslims & Christians & time and time again the Catholics & Christians look like uneducated & unrealistic fools... Somehow you can overlook this?

    The Vatican has 57 members who have history of molestation, the pope has been involved in overlooking a priest who did molester children & moved him elsewhere to molester more, his own brother also has molestered children.... Somehow you can overlook this?

    Jayne, Islam is the truth, Islam is pure, Islam is practical, Islam has the answer for every question you may have, Islam is against all the evil things like pornography, child molestation & does not condone it by practicing it behind closed doors.
    If you truly do believe in god, if you truly want paradise in the hereafter YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF to ask god for guidance Jayne...
    I challenge you for the next 28 days to pray to god everyday & after you pray ask god for guidance, to be shown the true path that god will accept, that god will then allow you to enter paradise.. you have absolutely nothing to loose at all...
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    This thread needs some input from brother Musa. You used to be catholic I believe Musa?
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    Jayne, how do u respond to this

    CONFIDENTIAL police reports have detailed the suicides of at least 40 people sexually abused by Catholic clergy in Victoria, and have urged a new inquiry into these and many other deaths suspected to be linked to abuse in the church.

    In a damning assessment of the church’s handling of abuse issues, the reports say it appears the church has known about a shockingly high rate of suicides and premature deaths but has "chosen to remain silent."

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/ch...#ixzz1rrldqOFX


    U reckon the church is still from God???
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    Jesus (pbuh) is the son of the Monogeni 
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    The big thing for me though is Christ. I can't accept that Christ was not the son of God. I have researched it, both from an Islamic and a Christian element. It's not that I'm not willing to go away from what I was raised with - I am a convert to Catholicism and it was a big disappointment to my family. I simply haven't come across anything in Islam that convinces me that Christ was not the son of God. Perhaps if I'm ever convicted otherwise I'll convert, but until then nothing else really counts.
    John 3:16 is one of the most often quoted verses of the Bible. The interpretation of John 3:16 in the King James Version of the Bible is rendered as follows:

    For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    But is that a correct rendition?

    Allow me to offer a new interpretation of John 3:16 and, in particular, the phrase most often translated as ‘His only begotten Son’.

    To proceed, the oldest existing Christian scriptures are written in Greek. There are many copies in existence, all in varying states of deterioration and, most interestingly, no two versions are the same.

    That the oldest existing versions, of what is known today as the Bible, are indeed written in Greek, is a testament in itself to the fact that none of those manuscripts is the original Gospel of Jesus, because he was a Jew and Aramaic was his first language.

    Indeed, even Biblical scholars admit that none of the existing scriptures are the original source, which they have labelled the ‘Q’ document/Bible.

    Nevertheless, in order to best come to a correct understanding of the meaning of John 3:16, we need to go back to the oldest versions in existence, i.e. the Greek.

    Below is the Greek version of John 3:16, with the phrase that has been mostly translated as ‘His only begotten Son’, underlined:

    Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενη ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς Αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

    I’ll break it right down in order to facilitate a better understanding:

    ‘τὸν’ means ‘the’
    ‘Υἱὸν’ means ‘Son’

    As we all know, many English words are derived from Greek words, so, to get a good understanding of the word ‘μονογενη’, and its closest English equivalent, I will transliterate each letter and thereby provide the key which should dispel any myths as to its meaning:

    The Greek letter ‘μ’ is transliterated as ‘m’, ‘o’ is transliterated as ‘o’, ‘ν’ is transliterated as ‘n’, ‘γ’ is transliterated as ‘g’, ‘ε’ is transliterated as ‘e’, ‘η’ is transliterated as ‘i’ [and ‘σ’ is transliterated as ‘s’].

    Put it all together and we get ‘monogeni’. The word ‘mono’ (μονο), as most people already know, means ‘only one’, and the word ‘geni’ (γενη*) means ‘genders’. So, when translated most accurately, the underlined phrase above, which is most commonly mistranslated as meaning ‘His only begotten Son’, should actually read as meaning, ‘the Son (of) only one (of) the genders’.

    Now, we all know that, under normal circumstances, it takes both genders to produce a child, by the Will of God, so it follows that a child born asexually from just one gender, i.e. without the fusion of both male and female gametes, can only occur miraculously, by the Will of God.

    Hence, when referring specifically to Jesus, as it does in John 3:16, the word ‘monogeni’ can only be taken as meaning his miraculous birth from his virgin Mother, Mary…one of the greatest, most beloved and revered women to have ever lived [may God bestow His Peace and Blessings upon her and her son].

    Moreover, the Greek word ‘genesi’ (γένεση), which in English means ‘genesis’, is derived from the word ‘geni’. So it should come as no surprise to anyone that the word ‘monogenesis’ means ‘asexual reproduction’.

    As to the other verses in the Bible that refer to Jesus as being the ‘Son of God’, those who are familiar with it would attest to the fact that many people are, in fact, described as such therein. If, for instance, we look at the verses listed below, we could be forgiven for asking how Jesus could have been God’s only Son when others also share the same description.

    Exodus 4:22; 2 Samuel 7:13-14; Jeremiah 31:9; Luke 3:38; Deuteronomy 14:1; Romans 8:14; John 1:12; Philippians 2:15; 1 John 3:1-2; Job 38:7; Job 2:1; Job 1:6; Genesis 6:4; Genesis 6:2; Psalms 2:7

    This apparent discrepancy or contradiction, in the Bible, cannot be attributed to God or even the author of the verse but, rather, in the way that John 3:16 has been consistently mistranslated.

    The word ‘Υἱὸν’, in certain contexts, does means ‘Son’ but it can also mean ‘Servant’, ‘Prophet’, ‘Messenger’ and a host of other meanings. Indeed, if the word ‘Υἱὸν’ is consistently translated throughout the Bible, as meaning ‘Son’, then it can be safely said that we are all ‘Sons of God’. But, God is unique and our relationship to Him is that He created us, so it is not fitting for us to attribute to Him human qualities and relationships, such as father/child. When God decrees a matter to be, He need only say ‘Be’ and it is.

    God tells us in the Qur’an that He could have, if He had so wished, sent Angels to convey His Messages but chose, instead, to send men from among us, partly in order to demonstrate that it is humanly possible to adhere to all the obligations that He has set for us, and also to serve as perfect human examples for all mankind to emulate and follow.

    What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has God sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger."

    Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for an apostle." 17: 94-95


    To say that Jesus is the son of God is to infer that he is of like nature to God which, in turn, leads those who hold that view to associate him as a partner with God. Common sense dictates that such a view is a slap in the face of monotheism and a direct contradiction to the First Commandment, which emphatically states that there is only one God.

    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
    Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
    He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    And there is none like unto Him.
    Surah: 112


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    *If you have any doubt regarding the meaning of the word ‘γενη’ mentioned above, I invite you to copy the word and paste it in the appropriate place at the link below. Select the option which will allow you to translate from Greek to English and press the ‘Translate’ button to verify the meaning. http://babelfish.altavista.com/
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    Apology from the catholic church for stolen baby scandal:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2l0W...e_gdata_player
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    Over 2,000 years of child abuse within the catholic church:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfXaQ...e_gdata_player
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    Crazy Cat Lady Jayne's Avatar
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    Melb.:

    You say that the only reason the Church has survived is because it is corrupt. I say that is proof that it has Gods protection. How many organisations can you name that have survived 2000 years +? If the Church is, and always has been as corrupt as you claim, then it would have disappeared long ago. There are people within the Church who are corrupt, and at time some of them have been high ranking, but the Church herself is not.

    You seem to think I should base what I believe on what other people do, rather than what the faith teaches. I think that is one of the most ridiculious assertions I've heard. There are over a billion Catholics in the world and not one of them is perfect. I have, and will continue to, base my faith on what the Church teaches. If there are Catholics who aren't living the faith as they should, then that is a separate matter to be dealt with.

    There are Muslims who believe in killing innocent civilians. Should I expect you to walk away from Islam because that is despicable? There are Middle Eastern countries who have been under the rule of Muslim dictators - why don't you walk away from Islam because of how they behave?

    As for the sacrifice - stop avoiding Melb. First you say - "no father would do this", and I give you a present day example, but that doesn't count. Then we look at a man of faith both our religions accept, and he doesn't count. And I further explain it isn't about the Father sacrificing the Son, but the Son sacrificing himself, and there are more cases of man sacrificing himself for others in history than can be numbered, yet you avoid addressing that too. Why don't you be truthful and achknowledge that parents do sacrifice their kids and that even if they didn't, that isn't what the Cross is about anyway? A little intellectual honesty would be nice rather than just avoiding my answer when it doesn't suit you.

    Do you really think I haven't asked God for guidance? Do you think I made a decision to convert to a religion against my families wishes on a whim? Perhaps I was rebelling? If God leads me to Islam, so be it, but the likelihood of that is less every day. That Islam doesn't accept pornograhy or pedeophilia means little to me. Nor does the Church (someday you'll understand the Church and her members aren't the same thing). Nor does she accept divorce/remarrige, which Muslims can do to their hearts content. We don't accept conraception or sex outside of marriage or polygamy. We refuse to achknowledge same sex marriage, and consider homosexual activity sinful. The Church is the largest non-government charity in the world.... we can both list good things our religions have done. Just as we can both list things that people have done in the name of our religions that we aren't so proud of.

    The one thing Islam can't top is that we have the true presence of God in our Churches. Body, blood, soul and divinity.
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    Crazy Cat Lady Jayne's Avatar
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    For the others who have replied, I stated earlier I would only converse with Melb. For the very reason that has occurred since I last posted - half a dozen people are expecting replies and I don't have the time for that.

    If you want to debate Islam vs Catholicism, then I'd suggest either:

    http://forums.catholic-convert.com/index.php

    The former been better than the latter.
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    Because the it has lasted 2,000 years that's proof god has protection, so god is allowing pornography, pedophilia in the largest form, theft of children through drugging innocent mothers in catholic hospitals.. Come on Jayne you really can't believe that, if god was protecting the church it wouldn't be so corrupt. Its the same as saying god is protecting the hells angels, the banditos and all the rest of the gangs...
    Basing your faith on what the church teaches? If my sheikh taught me about Islam, spoke the best of words & taught us everything we needed to know, then went out and molestered children do you really think we would allow him to guide us? But, we don't have a structure like yours, we don't have a head of state if you want to call that who can cap all the corruption & sweep under the table all these evil acts, but if we did have a system like that then NO I would never go to another mosque in my life... But that's not Islam, that's what you can call protection via god, fear of god, and obedience to god, we don't just say we fear god, we act upon it...
    Muslim dictators like ghadafi, Saddam? Jayne they are merely Muslim by name, not by faith!
    The sacrifice I still hold the same belief, no one would sacrifice their son, if god came to me & said sacrifice your son & it's the best for you both, yes I would. So that answers your question about Ibrahim. Now, can you explain this trinity you believe in in your own words for me? Or will you avoid it again?
    Im sorry to say Jayne, but if you really asked for guidance then how did you end up in the most corrupt religion on this earth? Corruption of the most evil types does not come from gods protection, but in reality would come from the devil, so no I don't beleive you did.
    Islam will never top the church for blood & once again gods presence in a church that is molestering children, lying, cheating, stealing... I say thank god we will not only never top this, we will never come close! Allahu akbar!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne View Post
    For the others who have replied, I stated earlier I would only converse with Melb. For the very reason that has occurred since I last posted - half a dozen people are expecting replies and I don't have the time for that.

    If you want to debate Islam vs Catholicism, then I'd suggest either:

    http://forums.catholic-convert.com/index.php

    The former been better than the latter.
    You dont have time for the rest of us!!!! awww you just broke my heart (U)
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    Senior Member SammerTX's Avatar
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    Not interested in debating Islam vs Catholicsim Jayne.

    I'm just baffled by the statement you cannot forgo the idea Jesus is God's son when that is the very first thing Christians usually reject.

    So I'm curious as to what exactly are you basing your belief on.
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    Melb (16-Apr-2012)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SammerTX View Post
    I'm just baffled by the statement you cannot forgo the idea Jesus is God's son when that is the very first thing Christians usually reject.

    So I'm curious as to what exactly are you basing your belief on.
    I'm baffled too, and would also like to know what Jayne is basing her belief on, but it seems that she doesn't have time to respond to you, shaquille20 or me.
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    Crazy Cat Lady Jayne's Avatar
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    Melb: If all you can talk about is pornography and abuse, then this conversation isn't worth having. You are arguing against a strawman. The Catholic Church does not support either, regardless of what it's members have done in its name. Just as there are Muslims in name only, there are Catholics in name only. Interesting this is only acceptable to you in regards to Islam.

    If you can't understand this, then there is no point discussing anything else.

    Edit: Before you claim I am simply "avoiding the topic", lets put it in words you'll understand. If I asked "how can you follow a religion which considers terrorism a good thing?", "how can you ignore the fact that your 'Prophet' was both sex obsessed and a pedeophile?, surely God wouldn't use such a man?", "how can you believe in a religion that mistreats women?"

    If I did that, on every post, you would consider me a troll. And rightly so. That is what you're doing Melb. You're trolling and I've had enough. I was happy to answer questions, but it has gone beyond that. If you won't listen to the answer then there is no point answering.
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    Crazy Cat Lady Jayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar Abdur Rahman View Post
    I'm baffled too, and would also like to know what Jayne is basing her belief on, but it seems that she doesn't have time to respond to you, shaquille20 or me.
    If I replied to anyone who responded to this thread I'd be having at least 6 conversations going. I don't have the time for that.
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    Ok, so seeing as you're not going to respond to any more talk about sexual perversion within the church, then why no tell us about why you think Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, if you can spare the time.
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