One Muslim's fight to marry Islam with homosexuality

[Melb]

Melb: If all you can talk about is pornography and abuse, then this conversation isn't worth having. You are arguing against a strawman. The Catholic Church does not support either, regardless of what it's members have done in its name. Just as there are Muslims in name only, there are Catholics in name only. Interesting this is only acceptable to you in regards to Islam.

If you can't understand this, then there is no point discussing anything else.

Edit: Before you claim I am simply "avoiding the topic", lets put it in words you'll understand. If I asked "how can you follow a religion which considers terrorism a good thing?", "how can you ignore the fact that your 'Prophet' was both sex obsessed and a pedeophile?, surely God wouldn't use such a man?", "how can you believe in a religion that mistreats women?"

If I did that, on every post, you would consider me a troll. And rightly so. That is what you're doing Melb. You're trolling and I've had enough. I was happy to answer questions, but it has gone beyond that. If you won't listen to the answer then there is no point answering.

Jayne understand a couple of things:
Our profit (saws) was not a pedophile & had the best of character, he was the best man to ever walk on the face of this earth, not only do we believe this but also does non Muslims, just look at top 100 people of all time. Number 1 is our profit Mohamad (saws).
Where does it condone terrorism within our scriptures?

You are missing a very big point Jayne, it's not some Catholics who run these extortion rings, pornography rings and child molestering rings, it's the church itself! The pope and everyone in the Vatican, everyone who represents & runs the catholic church.
Please name something similar within Islam, yes you will find some Muslims, but you wont find anything remotely as corrupt as the whole catholic system.
Women are mistreated Jayne?
Women are held so highly in Islam, as an example there is a hadeeth that says our profit (saws) replied to a man who was asking who the most important person on earth should be to him, he replied your mother, your mother, your mother, then your father... Or if your referring to hijab, the women can testify for this from there point, but from a mans point of view a woman who covers her beauty does not get treated JUST for her beauty but for her brain, her mind & her character.

[Omar Abdur Rahman]

Hi Jayne. I invite you to watch the video at the following link. It's about Jesus (pbuh) from the Islamic perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCZ4HauROx0

[Melb]

Ok, so seeing as you're not going to respond to any more talk about sexual perversion within the church, then why no tell us about why you think Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God, if you can spare the time.

I think this is a great question. Can you please answer this Jayne?

[Jayne]

Where does it condone terrorism within our scriptures?

Hang on, that's not good enough for me. If I can't say "pornography isn't allowed by our scriptures/Tradition" but rather you insist I go by what some men do, then you can't claim "It isn't allowed by our scriptures" either.

Some Muslims commit terrorist acts, therfore Islam allows it. By the logic you have continually applied to my faith throughout this thread, you should have no problem accepting this statement.

Edit: And no, I won't answer anymore questions by you Melb. "The Pope runs a pornography ring" is just trolling, and I see no reason to answer a troll.

[Jayne]

Hi Jayne. I invite you to watch the video at the following link. It's about Jesus (pbuh) from the Islamic perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCZ4HauROx0

I watched half - too much misinformation. He says the reason that Jesus is called the Son of God is because they could see he did not have a father, except this is not true. Mary was married to St Joseph and those near to the family would have assumed that St Joseph was his father. He is attacking a belief that Christians don't even hold.

And the idea that Mary wished to be dead rather than bear the child... Melb. would kill his own child if God instructed, but I'm supposed to believe that Mary had issue with bearing a child and would have rather died?

What were you hoping I would take out of that video? It certainly isn't convincing me of anything.

[Jayne]

ugh.. and I just broke my rule. I'm not getting into an argument with you about Jesus Omar Abdur Rahman. You asked me to give the video a go. I did and that's what I got out of it. No point discussing it further.

[Omar Abdur Rahman]

Hi Jayne,

You say there’s no point in discussing it further and that you don’t want to argue. I say, that’s entirely up to you but, to be fair, we haven’t actually discussed anything yet, let alone argue. So, can I at least ask if you read post #108 and, if so, what you have to say about it?

[Abu Layla]

Jayne, sorry to add another person into this but I'll be pretty much out after I say this. One of the reasons Mary 'wished she was dead' was not due to the pains of the labour, rather the slanders that were made up about her and the tarnishing of her and her family's reputation. The accusations that were thrown at her were severe. Adultery/fornication now is like nothing (for most people, not us (including yourself)), but back then this was something really major.

How was she to live with having a child and claiming that no man had toucher her? This is something that is unimagineable. But according to Islam (as you no doubt know) Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother, spoke while he was an infant and said that he was the Servant of God. They still didn't believe and labelled it magic and witchcraft and whatever else.

[SammerTX]

The fact is the concept of Jesus (or any human) being the physical son of God (as opposed to "son" as in one of the righteous) is it's inconsistent with all three: facts, logic and scripture.

As the Qu'ran clearly states, those who utter such lies are speaking without knowledge for it is not befitting the majesty of God that he should take unto himself a son.

Abraham, Moses and David as well as other great prophets and messengers never preached or believed God had a physical son.

These are the interpolations of the Pauline doctrine (a man who never met Jesus once in his lifetime) that muddled the original pristine message Jesus Christ came with - the same message as all great prophets and messengers taught.

May God guide us all to worshiping him alone.

[Melb]

Hang on, that's not good enough for me. If I can't say "pornography isn't allowed by our scriptures/Tradition" but rather you insist I go by what some men do, then you can't claim "It isn't allowed by our scriptures" either.

Some Muslims commit terrorist acts, therfore Islam allows it. By the logic you have continually applied to my faith throughout this thread, you should have no problem accepting this statement.


Edit: And no, I won't answer anymore questions by you Melb. "The Pope runs a pornography ring" is just trolling, and I see no reason to answer a troll.

No Jayne its not some Catholics... It's the actual church who are committing these hideous crimes, the priests carry out and it's the catholic church that is condoning these actions by hiding them. The pope and the Vatican play the biggest role in all this, for over 2,000 years there is proof of child molestering & there are more than 50 members of the Vatican who have been accused of child molestering... So once again its not some Catholics... It's THE CATHOLICS!
And it's the same Catholics in this country that where also the stealing new born babies from there own catholic hospitals...
So no Jayne you can't use a Muslim done this, or a Muslim done that when it's not a catholic who done all these evil acts and are still committing them its THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!

Sorry Jayne, but I thought the only reason a non Muslim would come on an Islamic forum would be to feed the desire to learn more about Islam and eventually convert, I was merely just trying to point out how corrupt the catholic church is in an attempt to open your eyes...
It took a while but thought more people would have inputted to this thread, people who are more knowledgable than myself who could have done more justice on this topic..

[Jayne]

I did come on this forum to learn more about Islam - and others can contest to the fact that I have asked many questions and many have been good enough to send me resources which I have read and continue to read. Just in case anyone is wondering, I do my best to at least treat your Quran with respect even if it's not my holy book - it's one of the few that actually get a place off the floor (I really need to buy more bookshelves). I wasn't looking to convert, but nor was I totally against it at first. I needed to find out more, and although I have learnt a lot more I honestly don't believe it is the right path.

I stay on this forum for 2 reasons. Firstly, I think with all that's happening in the world, especially the Middle East, it's a good place to get an idea for what actual Muslims are thinking and feeling. It also helps with the bad wrap Muslims often get to know that if I see a woman in a niqab she probably isn't forced but chooses to, and I actually have an understanding of why she has chosen too. I've even been able to defend Muslims at times when people are spouting ignorance - I know you don't worship a moon God, regardless of what my brother tells me. There is nothing bad about learning about other religions even if you don't plan on converting.

The second is simply that it's nice to be away from Americans. Most people I interact with online are Americans and I get sick of it occasionally. You might all be Muslims, but you are also Australian and talk about things from a non-US viewpoint.

[Jayne]

Hi Jayne,

You say there’s no point in discussing it further and that you don’t want to argue. I say, that’s entirely up to you but, to be fair, we haven’t actually discussed anything yet, let alone argue. So, can I at least ask if you read post #108 and, if so, what you have to say about it?

Well, it looks like I'll be going away tomorrow and won't be back until Monday. It's not definite, so I might be able to have a look over the weekend but more likely, if I do respond it won't be till next week.

The reason I say I don't want to argue, is that more than once things have gone the way this thread has gone with Melb. I just have no interest in having to constantly defend something that isn't actually about my faith, or get in a back and forth about my faith.

I ask about the Muslim faith here, but I don't drag anyone over the coals about it, which is how I feel sometimes in threads like these.

[falah]

Jayne, as Christian, I often wondered why the Bible never mentioned Abraham as worshipping Jesus. Doesnt that bother you?

I also had trouble accepting that a just God would only save people who believed in Jesus. What chance did someone living in remote PNG or Amazon jungle have when they had never heard of Jesus? It doesn't seem fair and just. On the other hand, every human being can conceive of God on their own, without the idea being introduced to him.

Believing in God is natural/inate. Belief in Jesus is not inate.


Infants 'have natural belief in God'

INFANTS are hard-wired to believe in God, and atheism has to be learned, according to an Oxford University psychologist.

Dr Olivera Petrovich told a University of Western Sydney conference on the psychology of religion that even preschool children constructed theological concepts as part of their understanding of the physical world.

Pyschologists have debated whether belief in God or atheism was the natural human state. According to Dr Petrovich, an expert in psychology of religion, belief in God is not taught but develops naturally.

She told The Age yesterday that belief in God emerged as a result of other psychological development connected with understanding causation.

It was hard-wired into the human psyche, but it was important not to build too much into the concept of God. "It's the concept of God as creator, primarily," she said. Dr Petrovich said her findings were based on several studies, particularly one of Japanese children aged four to six, and another of 400 British children aged five to seven from seven different faiths.

"Atheism is definitely an acquired position," she said.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/in...0725-3l3b.html

[Melb]

To elaborate on falahs post.
Coming from a home that did not talk about god, had no religious influence & to talk about this topic you would be looked at funny and made to feel like there was something wrong with you...
At the age of around 7 I knew there was a god, I seen people praying or what I thought was praying on tv, so I would sit on my knees in my bedroom and complain to god, talk to god & ask of god. I quickly noticed that the things I asked for I would always get... But when I got older I started to notice things about different religions & one thing that I didn't agree with at an age of about 9 was the worshipping of anything or anyone other than god, I really knew this was wrong & even though I had absolutely no religious knowledge at all seeing things like the wearing of crosses, hanging of religious figures in cars (Christians have a certain lady who protects them in travels) would really make me feel disgusted in these practices, I would think but god is the only one who can help me!!!
Alhamdulilah these feeling were put into me at an age so young & subhanallah it really is amazing how god works!

[Melb]

Jayne have you read the book of Barnabas? One of the actual deciples of Jesus & one of the 12 apostles who wrote in his book that Jesus is not to be worshipped, Jesus is not god & there is a final messenger called Ahmad to come. He also said that Paul was not a follower of Jesus, but he was a person who would burn in hell..
Why is it that the Catholics reject the book of Barnabas? Why is it that the bishop of St Ferramino reverted to Islam after studying the book?
Do you as a catholic accept this book, knowing that the book was kept under lock & key in the popes library?