UK parents guilty of honour killing

[mayk]

Unfortunately, in Pakistan 'honor killing" has become an excuse to let the killers go scott-free. Judges don't go for the harsher punishment for the fear of been seen weak or secular.

Most murderers in a family (husband/brother/father killing wife/ sister/ daughter) use honor killing as their defense by default. They thus generally go unpunished, which kind of is the reason this mentality exist in Pakistanis living abroad or at home.

I don't know whose honor they are trying to protect by killing their family.

Forced marriage is the bane of existence of many Pakistani women. May Allah guide this nation to the right path.

[*saRah*]

Ok so its ok for their daughter to have a punishment put on her parents when Islaam would have done nothing about it? Also you have both parents plus one daughter saying she is innocent. Why does 1 WOMAN cancel out the testimony of A MAN and 2 women? islamically this makes no sense. The parents should be free. Its prolly just a case of the daughter being angry at her parents so she did the western thing and tried to get back at them. Allaahu alim

It's sad your attacking a dead girl who isn't here to defend herself. Sickening. I can't stand stories like this. Cultures that come before Islam need to be 6 feet under. If only everyone properly lived according to Islam.. If only...

[abu turaub]

Not a good enough reason for what? It doesn't matter the reason why a parent kills their child in islaam. Its nto a human beings place to punish them for it in this life. Just as we would not punish someone who does sins in the privacy of their own home.

This is a good example of how the wisdom of the Barelvis conclude honor killing is Islamic.

[AbuSuhayla]

I would hope that our scholars use their intellect when interpreting the texts.

Ahlus sunnah wal Jammah are not extreme hanafis nor are they sufis. We don't say Qiyas or intellect are ways of making rulings all the time. There is a time and place for both things but it's not in everyday situations. Muslims must only follow what the quran and hadeeth show us. No amount of human brainpower can go against this.

[AbuSuhayla]

Really? Then how are you able to determine which Scholarly opinions are correct, and which ones you will follow, considering there are so many differences of opinions, among the Scholars, on many topics...I'm sure you’re not receiving divine inspiration so, unless you just follow blindly then, perhaps, it's a good time to consider the possibility that Allah (SWT) might have given us a brain for at least one more reason than you've been previously prepared to concede.

When I say i don't use my intellect I mean i don't use my brain or emotions to feel or think about a situation. Unless islam permits it in that situation. If it does not than one has to purely rely on the texts that speak on a matter, and as a laymen I can not say what is correct or not but can only make a guess. This si why we have scholars to tell us what is right or wrong. Laymen do not have the intellect to even comprehend the proof sometimes. There are too many different mindframes and paths amongst the muslims. If we all used our own way of islaam as we do we will only continue to have 73 sects. Islaam is based off disregarding your own ideas and feelings and doing what Allaah tells you to.

[AbuSuhayla]

It's sad your attacking a dead girl who isn't here to defend herself. Sickening. I can't stand stories like this. Cultures that come before Islam need to be 6 feet under. If only everyone properly lived according to Islam.. If only...

If everyone followed Islaam properlly that would be wonderful. Lets be realistic thought. if the calipha was here today they would hate him. No music, women in pants, no women showing feet, no women showing hands or face, no women driving by themselves, men having slaves and western minded wives hating that, men must have beard, men must have pants above ankles, no women leaders and biggest of all no sufi groups worshipping their graves. Be honest with yourself for a second and think of the muslims you see everyday. Do they visually look or act like they would be ready for all of those rules? Most muslims want only parts of islaam but if and when it came down to it they wouldnt like the other rules because they have become so whitewashed by the west and the kuffar its saddening. Especially here in Australia the muslims blend in way to much with the kuffar. I am not saying there are nto good muslims here but lets just take personal appearance as an example. MOST muslims atleast in Melbourne you would never know they are muslims. Long beards and tight pants and t shirt dont count as an islamic appearance.

[Omar Abdur Rahman]

When I say i don't use my intellect I mean i don't use my brain or emotions to feel or think about a situation. Unless islam permits it in that situation. If it does not than one has to purely rely on the texts that speak on a matter, and as a laymen I can not say what is correct or not but can only make a guess. This si why we have scholars to tell us what is right or wrong. Laymen do not have the intellect to even comprehend the proof sometimes. There are too many different mindframes and paths amongst the muslims. If we all used our own way of islaam as we do we will only continue to have 73 sects. Islaam is based off disregarding your own ideas and feelings and doing what Allaah tells you to.

So, are you saying that you didn’t use your brain in all those posts that you insisted there was no human punishment in Islam, for parents who kill their own children for whatever reason? If so, then how did you come to that conclusion, and how did that work for you?

[AbuSuhayla]

So, are you saying that you didn’t use your brain in all those posts that you insisted there was no human punishment in Islam, for parents who kill their own children for whatever reason? If so, then how did you come to that conclusion, and how did that work for you?

No that is not what I was implying. I mean when I say i do not use my intellect or emotions is that I do not use them when it comes to looking at rulings in Islam. Islam has no place for emotions based rulings or laymen using their brain when it comes to a ruling the scholars have given. Unless the scholar is knowingly wrong than prove them wrong. Only time we can use our brain in a ruling is when qiyas is needed but that's not very often. Again laymen are in no position to question things intellectually or emotionally if a scholar gives a ruling based off daleel.

Using your brain to research is of course needed but I am speaking of when the ruling has been presented than there is no need to think about it if that ruling is correct or has genuine differing on it.

Also I was at this conclusion because I was told of it by a knowledgeable brother I know. Turns out he was partially wrong but also partially correct. I called a sheikh over the issue and he said by default you wouldn't kill the parent or hurt them, but the ruler is more than welcome to do either. So the brother should have said no punishment by default instead of no punishment at all.

[Abu Coburg]

I take responsibility for my lack of being informed.

In one word - it's called jahalah. Thank you for admitting and taking responsibility for your jahalah.

I don't use my intellect or opinions when i think about islaam. i try to leave that stuff at the door so to say. I rely purely on texts and scholarly opinions

But how do you determine which text is authentic and which scholar is right, without using your brain?

[Sister.]

I initially thought Abu Suhayla was a troll, but upon further reading of his posts I realised he isn't.

He's just been taught Islam differently to how we have, he does seem though like he is here to learn to an extent.

SubhanAllah it's Ramadan, where is our patience? If you guys intend to change his opinions by making a mockery of him and throwing personal insults at him as some have instead of advising him kindly, like the one or two who have, then forget it. People's opinions don't change like that, in fact learning in the first place hardly occurs with insults and mockeries.
I understand some of his beliefs and ideals may seem strange or against Islam, but if we want to educate him we aren't doing it in the best way.

From what I've read on this thread so far he hasn't thrown personal insults at anyone...
Following a sheikh or scholar that we have been taught to be corrupt etc doesn't constitute rudeness to a brother. If you truly want to educate him, do it kindly. I haven't looked much at other threads where he is involved, but in this one thus far he has responded better to kindness than harshness, as is expected from anyone.

He has publicly apologised for his misjudgement, not many have done that on these forums; this (to me, at least) demonstrates that he is willing to accept mistakes on his behalf and amend his ways.

[UmmZ.]

How appropriate. Mufti Ismail Menk's status on Facebook today:

Always be in search of pure knowledge and be disciplined enough to put it into practice and convey it to others.

Never be shy to correct what you always thought was correct once you discover it is not.

Learn to authenticate matters of religion and remember the greatest gift is to be able to substantiate matters from authentic sources.

The Messenger pbuh used to often pray, "My Rabb, Grant me increase in knowledge."

[cheesegirl]

Sister. - this guy claimed there are only thirty real Muslim brothers in Australia. He berates a girl for exposing her parents as murderers. His only concern about coptic reverts being handed back os that they post videos of themselves on youtube. That is worse than any insult. Even the best of people would find it hard to be patient in the face of such nonsense.

[AbuSuhayla]

In one word - it's called jahalah. Thank you for admitting and taking responsibility for your jahalah.



But how do you determine which text is authentic and which scholar is right, without using your brain?

I am not saying don't use your brain to figure out people or groups. i am saying we don't use our own understanding and than apply it to a sitruation and forget about what islaam has to say. If someone uses their own brain it generally gets them in trouble, unless they are taught how to use it, IE a scholar. Laymen have not been trained how to think properly.

Also the scholars are the ones that tell you which scholars are ok and what texts are able to be read without clouding your judgement and knowledge. To see who the people of the truth are than you have to inspect how much they follow the sunnah and what their beleifs in Allaah are. Do they beleive Allaah inside everyone like Ibn Arabi did? Do they think the prophet sallaahu alayhi wa salaam was nto a human and made of light like the barelvis. Do they beleive it's ok to riot and protest and trim your beard short like the people of the Egyptian brotherhood ( generally)? If one goes against the sunnah knowingly than there is no way he is a scholar.

[Omar Abdur Rahman]

A'salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatu

No that is not what I was implying. I mean when I say i do not use my intellect or emotions is that I do not use them when it comes to looking at rulings in Islam. Islam has no place for emotions based rulings or laymen using their brain when it comes to a ruling the scholars have given.

But, as you’ve already made clear, you consciously choose to follow the rulings of certain Scholars over the rulings of other Scholars so, as a layman, how do you determine who’s right and who’s wrong?

Islam has no place for emotions based rulings or laymen using their brain when it comes to a ruling the scholars have given. Unless the scholar is knowingly wrong than prove them wrong.

Brother, you’ve gone so far, elsewhere, as to say that only 30 Muslims in Melbourne are on the Haqq…so, how did you come to that conclusion? Was it something that the Scholars you follow have determined through thorough investigation, or is that your own opinion, and isn’t it up to those who make the claim to provide the proof of what they’re claiming, i.e. prove that the rest of Melbourne’s Muslims are on falsehood?

Only time we can use our brain in a ruling is when qiyas is needed but that's not very often.

I think it’s clear that we use our brains in more areas than you’re conceding.

Again laymen are in no position to question things intellectually or emotionally if a scholar gives a ruling based off daleel.

But when Scholars make different rulings and provide their evidence, we decide, through a series of mental processes, which Scholar we think is correct…don’t we?

Using your brain to research is of course needed but I am speaking of when the ruling has been presented than there is no need to think about it if that ruling is correct or has genuine differing on it.

I agree that we use our brain to research, and also to decide which position we think is correct when there are differences of opinion among the Scholars.

Also I was at this conclusion because I was told of it by a knowledgeable brother I know. Turns out he was partially wrong but also partially correct. I called a sheikh over the issue and he said by default you wouldn't kill the parent or hurt them, but the ruler is more than welcome to do either. So the brother should have said no punishment by default instead of no punishment at all.

To get back to actual case at hand, please ask your Sheikh as to his opinion about Muslims obeying the law of the land in which they reside, and whether the punishment meted out, if they are truly guilty of killing their own daughter, is valid in Islam.


Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu.

[AbuSuhayla]

I have never called anyone a kaffur who isnt one. I also have never called anyone a fasiq, or a madkhali unlike some people who respond to my posts. I have in all of my threads put down ideas unless someone insults me than of course i get defensive. Being upfront and blunt doesnt mean someone is insulting people.

[AbuSuhayla]

Sister. - this guy claimed there are only thirty real Muslim brothers in Australia. He berates a girl for exposing her parents as murderers. His only concern about coptic reverts being handed back os that they post videos of themselves on youtube. That is worse than any insult. Even the best of people would find it hard to be patient in the face of such nonsense.

Prove to me that in islaam if one man and 2 women say someone didnt do something, than one woman says they did that means the accused party is guilty. Thats exactly what happened in the UK murder case. So islamicly the parents have been wronged.

You also seemed to look over the fact that I said I don't agree with the coptic situation if it truly did happen. Also recorded videos of things with souls are haram that's why i brought it up.

Alot of people on this forum are acting if I am heartless because i point out videos are haram and that protesting is haram or say Mubarak is a kaffur. I like to be careful with my islaam and not just apply my own feelings to things. I am married and have children so I must not be totally heartless inshaaAllaah

Also lets just say the whole copt situation is real. Doesn't excuse them for their other sins. You have to abide by Islaam at all times even in extreme hardships

[abu rashid]

Alot of people on this forum are acting if I am heartless because i point out videos are haram and that protesting is haram or say Mubarak is a kaffur. I like to be careful with my islaam and not just apply my own feelings to things.

First murderers get off if they kill their own kids, now protests are haram and Hosni is a muslim... interesting.

I am married and have children so I must not be totally heartless inshaaAllaah

How does that make one not heartless? Some of the worlds most brutal heartless dictators had wives and children.

[AbuSuhayla]

Ibn Baaz on protesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqYXc5EBORo

This articles touches upon Hosni Mubarak: http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/dow.../MNJ180004.pdf

[abu rashid]

Ibn Baaz on protesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqYXc5EBORo

Can we expect the one who was in the employment of a tyrannical traiterous king to say anything other than this?

This articles touches upon Hosni Mubarak: http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/dow.../MNJ180004.pdf

May Allah (swt) unite you with him on the day of judgement.

[AbuSuhayla]

Can we expect the one who was in the employment of a tyrannical traiterous king to say anything other than this?



May Allah (swt) unite you with him on the day of judgement.

I hope you mean you hope I am united with Allaah and not Hosni Mubarak. If you didn't mean that than Authoobillah