What do you think is missing in the community?

[mahelm]

AA.
What is needed is acceptance and dialogue between Islamic groups so that an Australian Islamic identity could be forged to represent all of us…..

Instead of spending enegy and money on three different radio programs for Ramadan...why not one?????? only result in waste & more division
regards

[AbuSufyan]

Or one radio station with a decent transmission, I can never get the Islamic radio stations on my radio

[MujahidFromSydney]

a pack of Tim Tams that never runs out!

[amatul_rahmaan]

a pack of Tim Tams that never runs out!

on today tonight, they said that timtams actually contains animal fat in it.

from another thread http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/...ead.php?t=7502

[*saRah*]

a pack of Tim Tams that never runs out!

hahah lol...try tim tams with tea...delicious and like bite one end and then the other and dunk it into the tea and suk the tea out through the tim tam...hahah very nice,
the results:
tim tam becomes very soft like a babys bottom and the chocolate is melted and all
haha very nice

[*saRah*]

We need boxing and kickboxing classes for brothers!

haha yeah we also need taekwondow clases for sisters...i want to finish my classes but simply cant cos its mixed with men

[SuBMiSSioN]

It's tim tam with coffee, not tim tam with tea!

Back to the original question, the community is missing more people like myself

Nah, serious, I have to tend to agree that we need more in depth classes running. Most of the talks that are around atm are quite general. You'll find a couple of classes here and there that go into a bit more depth, but they don't run often enough, and for those of us who can't make it on a certain night don't have another choice to choose from. I myself would love to attend some kind of in depth class, but the circumstances I'm in make it a little difficult.

I don't think there is that much of a shortage in classes for sisters. If you ask around you will find stuff happening. A lot of girls tend to start a small group, meet together at someones house, and organise some kind of classes. You just need to go to some organisations and ask them what they have on offer for sisters. A lot of things are not advertised.

I think that's another problem. Advertising of particular classes/events. Not many people know of what is happening in and around a particular organisations/masjids. They will hear about the lecture that happens once in a blue moon at Melbourne Uni or where ever, but won't hear much about other classes that are running weekly at masjids and what have you. I have been to the lectures at Preston masjid on Friday and Saturday nights, and it's disappointing that not many sisters show up. You will find a lot of brothers there, masha'Allaah, but the sisters are missing.

[Khaled]

the community is missing more people like myself

... HAHAHAHAHA ....

[AbuSufyan]

I find Ahmad Ayyad's classes are pretty in depth. Though I do agree we need more of such classes, the general classes after a time get really boring. You find yourself going just to be around Muslims (which is a great benefit in itself) rather then learning, as it all becomes pretty repetitive.

[Ebu Abdirrahiym]

It depends on whose perspective you look at the question i think; at an individual level, sure tim tam's may satiate your cravings for sugar; or in depth classes may satiate your need for more knowledge but what use is knowledge if it won't benefit; let me explain ...

from a community's perspective i think the bare necessacities of socio-political and economic structures are still very much missing or inadequate; how can you expect to stand on your feet when you don't even have the base infrastructure to support you;
unless you do, you will never be able to operate independently and you will be subjected to the order that has been designed to shackle you and to restrict your activities. one case in example, there are still many people worried about taking out loans in fear of getting involved in interest; we're still missing the bare necessacities like housing and thus we're slaving away each and everyday in an effort to build for ourselves a home
We need more social infrastructures like economic systems, community homes, schools, universities etc. things that will sustain us and make visible the interaction and activities of the one united community. Other things like more classes, events etc.. will naturally flow from such a fountain. I think it's time we talked sense into the leaders of these islamic organizations and pressure them to at least unite at a social level.


Let me tie this rant to my original unfinished thought; i was listening to a lecture by some sheikh some time ago and i vaguely remember him mentioning that in days gone past once a muslim from the early generations heard the following verse from the quran:

meaning of which is:

It is He Who has made the sea subject, that ye may eat thereof flesh that is fresh and tender, and that ye may extract therefrom ornaments to wear; and thou seest the ships therein that plough the waves, that ye may seek (thus) of the bounty of Allah and that ye may be grateful.

He thought to himself, if Allah (s.w.t) has subjected the sea to us then we must take control over it and so here he is, somebody who knows nothing about sailing, navigation, ships, nautical charts or the sea, yet he applies this knowledge that he learns from the quran and works to develop a shipping fleet, a navy and he sails far and wide conquering distant lands I believe and all of this, from one verse of the quran. Allahu Akbar!

So, yes alhamdulillah you may learn and one's thirst for knowledge should never be quenched, however let's make sure that we will not be of the people Allah (s.w.t) has described in His book, which means:

[quote 62 5]
The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of the donkey carrying books. Wretched is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
[/quote]

I'm not attacking anybody btw, so don't take anything i say personally, it's just the state of the muslim world upsets me and so does the fact that i have such difficulty reforming my ownself and applying the little that Allah (s.w.t) has taught me; but alhamdulillahi 'ala kulli haal.
Allahu 'alam.

[amatul_rahmaan]

Ebu Abdirrahiym: ma sha'allah what you said is so true although i believe that this is more missing in the individuale more than the community.

[dijma]

The issue of infrastructure ties in with the issue of gaining knowledge.

Education has to come first. Only then will people especially in the west begin to see the need for islamic finance (riba free), the need for Muslim schools, full time imams and daee's.

The community must first acknowledge the dire need for these institutions, as an islamic obligation especially, only then will there be sacrifices made both physically and monetarily to establish them.

Where does the responsibility lie? With those who know and dont do anything, with the leaders, and the people of influence. If they set the example, the massses will follow.

it will begin small, but with Allaah's blessing and protection, it will prosper.

[Ebu Abdirrahiym]

i don't have any problems with an individual seeking knowledge, in fact, knowledge to a certain degree is obligatory in order to understand the fundamentals in islam, like, la-ilaha-illallah; but i'm not comfortable with trumpeting this tune ad infinitum when it is not a duty on the selective individual to become an imam; your level of islamic knowledge should not stop you from carrying out certain duties obligatory to establish this infrastructure or to better the community like we've been talking about. It is said that khalid ibn waleed (r.a.) only knew a handful of verses, but take a look at how much he achieved.

Education has to come first. Only then will people especially in the west begin to see the need for islamic finance (riba free), the need for Muslim schools, full time imams and daee's.

The community must first acknowledge the dire need for these institutions, as an islamic obligation especially, only then will there be sacrifices made both physically and monetarily to establish them.

Where does the boundary of this education rest anyhow? the body of knowledge is immense, you can never master it; if we're talking about general understanding or acknowledgement or acceptance by the public then aren't these frequent (so called) natural disasters enough of a warning! Even after that if they don't join the bandwagon, you should not let this stop your efforts in working towards establishing the framework.

You don't need to convince everybody and you don't need to educate the entire community in islam, a society does not function in this way, you need laborers, imams, investors etc... but most importantly you need a framework.

Who is working towards this goal? this is what i'm trying to get at. People have been giving da'wah for many decades, yet where is this framework? where is the infrastructure? and most importantly what does this tell you about this da'wah? either this is a generation that will not reform and Allah (s.w.t) will destroy it completely and in place raise a generation that will heed His (s.w.t) warnings, or the da'wah is lacking in certain respects.

you cannot succeed without a framework and without the infrastructure! show me one example where the sahaba worked outside of a framework?

I'm not trying to discourage you from continuing with your da'wah efforts, i'm all for it, but we also need to concentrate on other pressing issues, this is why i said earlier that we need to pressure the leaders to work collectively.

Where does the responsibility lie? With those who know and dont do anything, with the leaders, and the people of influence. If they set the example, the massses will follow.

it will begin small, but with Allaah's blessing and protection, it will prosper.

I agree!


got a run, i might come back to edit this, so please don't quote me.

[dijma]

Where does the boundary of this education rest anyhow? the body of knowledge is immense, you can never master it;

As you said, knowledge is divided into fard ayn and fard kifaya. Fard ayn is knowledge which is obligatory to be known by every individual with slight difference from person to person. Fard kifaya is to be known by 'some' people in the community, if there is noone who knows this knowledge, then it becomes a obligation upon the whole community to acquire it. Again, the leaders are more taken to task over this than the lay person.

The only way the people will know this is by education and cooperation. The latter form of knowledge requires community involvement and which will be derived from a recognition that that from of knowledge is an obligation from the shariah point of view.

Its the chicken and the egg situation. We say a framework is required, the only way this can occur is by building it or inheriting it. Building it from scratch requires a group of people who can recognize the islamic need for it, that will only come about by islamic (and secular) education. In inheriting it, what i mean is that the infrastructure of an established nation or community is taken over by Muslims, something which would occur when a country returns to Islam (an islamic nation). Again this would require a lot of da'wah, and most likely more than just da'wah.

People have been giving da'wah for many decades, yet where is this framework? where is the infrastructure? and most importantly what does this tell you about this da'wah? either this is a generation that will not reform and Allah (s.w.t) will destroy it completely and in place raise a generation that will heed His (s.w.t) warnings, or the da'wah is lacking in certain respects.

its true, but dawah takes time. As the shuyookh have said, it tooks years for the caliphate to dismantle (which is the ultimate framework we are trying to achieve), and it will take even longer to re-establish it. The fruits of dawah are evident, esp in Australia, look at our community 20 years ago, the youth were totally asleep, now just look at this forum as an example and you can see as-sahwah. The reawakening is undeniable, perhaps not at the speed that we would like it, but is occuring, and this is a worldwide phenomenon.

Reform takes times and requires enormous patience and perseverance. Frameworks and institutions will establish insha'Allaah, but there are still a lot of people who are asleep and need a wake up call. That is why many of the scholars of this ummah at this time say that the primary effort of this ummah at this moment is individual reform.

I just remembered a point in regards to leardership and the importance of having them working together. The Prophet alayhis salatu was salaam said which means that if he had 70 of the jewish scholars turn to islam, the entire jewish nation would become Muslim. This hadeeth points to importance of leaders in dawah, but also points to the importance of dawah itself. The only way these Jewish scholars would have become Muslim is through their knowledge of earlier scriptures and da'wah. 70 never became Muslim at the time of the Prophet, but by no means was this a bearing on the da'wah of the final messenger to mankind sallaahu alaihi wassalam.

[Ebu Abdirrahiym]

Its the chicken and the egg situation. We say a framework is required, the only way this can occur is by building it or inheriting it. Building it from scratch requires a group of people who can recognize the islamic need for it, that will only come about by islamic (and secular) education. In inheriting it, what i mean is that the infrastructure of an established nation or community is taken over by Muslims, something which would occur when a country returns to Islam (an islamic nation). Again this would require a lot of da'wah, and most likely more than just da'wah.

To me, this is in fact very simple; it's the chicken and we know that Allah (s.w.t) created Adam (a.s.) in the image of a man and then came the offspring, the produce, the fruits or the egg as the case may be, and this is somewhat similar to what we're discussing.

Let me clarify firstly that i do not necessarily mean "the caliphate" when i'm refering to "a framework", yes this is our ultimate goal, but i'm not deluded (inshaAllah not) and i know that this is yet a long way away.

You're speaking about "building it from scratch" and that this would only come about by islamic (and secular) education; yet akhee you yourself are working within a small framework of an organisation to disseminate dawah, are you not? do you then see the need for such a framework; you cannot fulfil the duties of da'wah and other responsibilities incumbent on the jam'ah (refering to fard kiyafah here) without the existence of collaborative, organised and collective effort. The fruits are borne from this body.

what i'm advocating is the expansion of this framework to incorporate other islamic organisations, thus establishing a greater scale framework within the local society. this framework will determine the social order and help build the required aforementioned infrastructure. collective effort is required for this.

you do not necessarily need to educate all of the community to establish this framework, yet you need this framework to reach the wider community. as mentioned previously, we're not expecting these islamic organisations to come to a common understanding on 'aqeedah, this is next to impossible, but we do need to work together, this is a given.

Allah (s.w.t) says which means:

And hold firmly to the rope of Allah together and do not disunite.

This is a command from Allah (s.w.t), yet how many of us are really paying any attention to it. Going back to the example of the verse about Allah (s.w.t) subjecting the sea to us, as the sheikh i was listening was saying, "where's our understanding of this verse", muslims don't produce any warships, they're all built by non-muslims.

the same question can be asked for the above quoted verse; where's our understanding of this!

The reawakening is undeniable

yes, let's not forget to thank sheikh al-Bush for this either.

The Prophet alayhis salatu was salaam said which means that if he had 70 of the jewish scholars turn to islam, the entire jewish nation would become Muslim. This hadeeth points to importance of leaders in dawah, but also points to the importance of dawah itself. The only way these Jewish scholars would have become Muslim is through their knowledge of earlier scriptures and da'wah. 70 never became Muslim at the time of the Prophet, but by no means was this a bearing on the da'wah of the final messenger to mankind sallaahu alaihi wassalam.

no it was not a bearing on the da'wah, and i made mention that the people may not reform as well, but going back to this narration, they did work within the framework of a jama'ah, did they not!

Allahu 'alam.

[AbuSufyan]

Actually we thank the Soviets for the Sahwal Islamiyya. Bush only turbo charged it, it was already in gear before he slithered on stage.

[AbuSufyan]

yet he applies this knowledge that he learns from the quran and works to develop a shipping fleet, a navy and he sails far and wide conquering distant lands I believe and all of this, from one verse of the quran. Allahu Akbar!

I am sure that was Muawiyya Radiyalahu 3anhu, as he built the first Islamic fleet.

I think the dawah here is going excellent, it has to move forward yes, but we should not nock it. As it is going well.

[dijma]

theres only benefit in formalizing and structuring da'wah into an organized manner. Ebu I agree with you totally, cooperation amongst muslims groups is vital especially in this time and age. This is increasing though, as more people like yourself begin to see the need for it. Lets find common ground and say that establishing these frameworks is part of da'wah itself.

yes, let's not forget to thank sheikh al-Bush for this either

i think that 9/11 did a lot of damage to the dawah of ahlus sunnah world wide, especially its framework globally which was developing rapidly. It is now being driven into pockets in local communities as the west continues its policy of marginalizing the truth and promoting the form of Islam which is compatible to their agenda.